Frustration and preparation for my first

[Aanayab1]

Sooo.... I been pondering the idea of getting a gtp for years and just never got around to learning enough to be comfortable with the responsibility. I've now completed reading the more complete chondro twice and repeated the confusing chapters countlessly until I comprehended the points at hand. I have located a source for bushmaster farm breed "localities". The guy holds them until they have 3 negative fecals and have taken at least 6 meals effortlessly. This source is still debatable with just buying a CBB. Only reason I am debating and not going strait CBB is because I can not seem to located a breeder who has normal GTPs. They are either "designer" or some specific so called fancy blood line. This will be my first so I need/want a beginner specimen. I don't want fancy this or that. I just want a quality specimen. I don't mind spending 750-850 to get a normal CBB. But all I can seem to find are 1200+ because of the fore mentioned. I'm just not willing to dish out 1200+ on my first. Once I know I got the husbandry down pat or become more confident in my abilities I will gladly pay that or more. I need a few more things to be fully prepared to bring my first home. The national reptile breeders expo is next month in Daytona so maybe I'll have some luck there? My apologies for being so long.

[BryanB]

good luck and glad you did the resurch

[smy_749]

Sooo.... I been pondering the idea of getting a gtp for years and just never got around to learning enough to be comfortable with the responsibility. I've now completed reading the more complete chondro twice and repeated the confusing chapters countlessly until I comprehended the points at hand. I have located a source for bushmaster farm breed "localities". The guy holds them until they have 3 negative fecals and have taken at least 6 meals effortlessly. This source is still debatable with just buying a CBB. Only reason I am debating and not going strait CBB is because I can not seem to located a breeder who has normal GTPs. They are either "designer" or some specific so called fancy blood line. This will be my first so I need/want a beginner specimen. I don't want fancy this or that. I just want a quality specimen. I don't mind spending 750-850 to get a normal CBB. But all I can seem to find are 1200+ because of the fore mentioned. I'm just not willing to dish out 1200+ on my first. Once I know I got the husbandry down pat or become more confident in my abilities I will gladly pay that or more. I need a few more things to be fully prepared to bring my first home. The national reptile breeders expo is next month in Daytona so maybe I'll have some luck there? My apologies for being so long.

Hi, GTP's are a very rewarding species to keep. There are many breeders who produce pure localities and I would advise CBB. One place I know for fact is Clockwork reptiles in Colorado (Ryan Burke, you can find him on facebook) and he breeds Jayas, biaks, arus, and a few other pure locales for between 3 and 400 dollars and allows you to choose your baby from the litter with pics of the parents. I wouldn't buy from an expo until you confirm who the vendor is, and that he truly breeds them.

Also, care is pretty easy so don't stress it too much.

Oh, and how are the ackies doing? Any eggs cooking yet?

[Aanayab1]

I will have to look him up, the web site I have seen with his, are super high.

It seems challenging but not overwhelming. I plan to meet some breeders at the show, not purchase there from them. But who to buy from when the time comes. The only husbandry issue I don't like is the small cage for the neonate. Vertical and horizontal heat gradients will be weird in a 12"x12"x16"... Rack with heat tape seems strait forward but a rack is not in need. Tub is an option and most likely best but to visually inspect daily with no handling and low visibility. I'd like to not have to expose the little thing to stress from its perch being pulled daily after shipping and new environment stress, seems it would be more stress to add.

Ackies are awesome! Getting so much more comfortable with my daily routines in their cage and around. I have been finding test holes, I think, sporadic shallow holes all around the enclosure except near the burrows. She is quite swollen looking but it's coming on 3 weeks since breeding stopped.

[Mikoh4792]

why would it be pulled from it's perch daily in that situation?

[smy_749]

Check his facebook, not his website. I think buying a rubbermaid where you can maintain a horizontal heat gradient with enough height for a high and a low perch is your best bet.

Heres an example of one of his posts on his facebook page.

"One Left! 2012 Jayapura Type GTP #201 - FB Special Price $375 on local pickup/$425 shipped! (Listed @$475 shipped on KS) Check out the thick black dorsal striping, very well started hammering 2 thawed pinkies at a time and just about ready to move up to small fuzzies. Get it while it lasts, these are going fast!"

There is another Burke who sells GTP's as well, I think its his brother. Check them both out. That is a great price for a CBB red neonate IMO.

[Aanayab1]

Mikoh: just would want to give a good look at it from all angles. I was meaning to pull the actual perch while the new arrival was still on the perch not pull the snake from the perch. Sorry I should have been more clear.

I'll check it out on lunch break tomorrow. Thanks for the tip

[Dave Kelley]

One general piece of advice, ignore a large part of that book. Chondros are not snakes that need high temperatures and to be misted in large amounts. These snakes seem to desiccate once they are subjected to temperatures above 85-86 at their basking area....higher temperatures cause them to dehydrate fairly easily, leading to nasty problems such as kidney failure. In turn, that is where the misting myth came about...the animals needed the extra moisture to combat the higher temperatures dehydrating them.

As for food, I'll tell you this...chondros do not ever need a meal larger than an adult mouse...ignore books about their captive care. A fellow breeder turned me on to some studies in the wild where chondros were being found gravid at only 500-600 grams...these snakes are meant to be small, and never need to see a rat.

I kept mine like a good number of other breeders have been recently, including Terry Phillip and Ryan Young, two breeders/keepers with a long list of species kept and bred and years in herpetoculture. Essentially, the animal between 80-84 and I never misted that snake for the 3 years I owned it. Never had a shed problem or RI. Fed her a mouse every 2-4 weeks, cleaned up her poop, and changed her water daily until I sold her deciding to focus on my carpets. If I could do it over again, the one thing I would change is to let the animal have a lower basking spot temperature (Maybe 85-86) for 8 hours a day, and let her experience some temperature variation. Having moved me carpets away from the flat 80-82 degree method, they all seem to still utilize the 88 spot recently provided, even though the summer heat is keeping the room in the low 80's/high 70's.

Read the 11 post down on this thread. Like I mentioned Earlier, Ryan has tons of experience, and so has Terry Phillip with these species. I followed their advice, and never had an issue when I owned mine. Not trying to bash the book, but pass on information that could save a snakes life.

more new camera work (http://www.moreliapythons.com/forums/showthread.php?36181-more-new-camera-work)

[Lankyrob]

Dave, what is the ambient humidityt where you are?

When i had mine i did provide the higher temps but didnt conform to the constant highh humidity. I would spray the viv to around 80% and then leave it be for three or four days when it had returned to ambient which is 50-60% here.

My gtp utilised the whole of its viv, basking at 90f, and perching at temps as low as 75f

[Aanayab1]

Dave: you've sparked a curious mind. I'm not doubting your husbandry skills or even challenging them by my next question, take it for what it reads and nothing else. Is there any documentation of the long term success while keeping them at the temperatures mentioned? Book, peer reviewed journals, litature with credentials or scientific papers even. I ask because all the journals and articles I have read go almost hand in hand with maxwells book. Now those items I mentioned are a bit outdated, so that has been taken into fair consideration. I would love to read more on the subject.

[Dave Kelley]

Lanky Rob, couldn't tell ya, because I don't measure "humidity." It really doesn't matter because humidity here is being mistaken for hydration in the animal. Like I said, I never misted, instead just cleaning the water dish every other day or so and offered lower temperatures, and fed less often. The lower temps mean the snakes aren't overheating, feeding small meals every 2-4 weeks meant the snakes weren't constantly basking which in turn I'm guessing would dehydrate them further, as they are needing to bask more. Also, the smaller infrequent meals helped to combat the ever so common prolapse issue. Big meals being fed to frequently with dehydration is just asking for trouble IMO...

Aanayab1, no I have no peer reviewed literature, book, literature, etc. I'm basing this on the husbandry of long time herpetoculturists whom have worked with more species than most of us ever will, for longer than most of us have been in the hobby.

I do have two radio shows that may be of interest though, where Terry Phillip, head curator at Reptile Gardens in South Dakota, whom also holds a private collection under the moniker "Black Hills Pythons" has long preached this to the chondro community. Basically, he keeps his snakes at the recommended ambient temperature...78-82 constantly. Researching a bit, the one thing I would change is that I would allow for gradual night drops down to 70-72 degrees during the winter to allow for slight variation. This is what Ryan Young recommnded when I asked him about his husbandry. He keeps all his animals at that constant 80-82 degree temp and allows his animals to hit a 70 degree night drop during the winter.

As for long term success, well I really couldn't tell ya. But based off the longevity provided for animals under the Maxwell regime, I'd say it'd be better. Terry touches a bit about Maxwell's book in both interviews, so I recommend the listen.

Here are the radio shows, and the third link is an article that Ryan Young provided to Reptiles Magazine for Savu's, although he referred me to it for other species as well.

Morelia pythons radio Online Radio by Moreliapythonradio | Blog Talk Radio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/moreliapythonradio/2012/01/15/terry-phillip-talks-everything-moreliaJ)

Venomous to Morelia with Terry Phillip 12/13 by Larry X BT | Blog Talk Radio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptileradio/2009/12/13/to-be-announced)

Breeding the Savu Python (http://www.reptilechannel.com/snakes/breeding-snakes/breeding-savu-python.aspx)

[smy_749]

something to consider about temps, they dont all come from the same areas. Some of the highland locales like Wamenas (spellcheck that?) have night drops to 59 and day time temps in the mid to high 70s. Other areas much higher etc. etc. 80-82 (On my phone but think thats what DK is suggesting) is IMO a safe zone. Something like a median temp which prob does good by most locales. Some may do great with basking spots of 86-88, some may do best with temps a bit lower and no hot spot. They live in forests which have almost 0 light hitting that zone so it shouldnt come as a surprise that you can keep them succesfully at one steady temp. Hope that makes some sense, Ive had a long day

[lady_bug87]

I think this is a very interesting discussion. I have noticed a number of things with my own GTP. I do offer a basking temperature between 86-88F but have really never seen her use it even after a meal she prefers the perch which offers her 84F. I have also noticed that she is very sensitive to the changes in temperature. For example: My husband closed the door to my snake room and the temperature in the room escalated 5F and I found my gtp was no longer perching she had taken cover on the floor of her viv (something she has done twice in 2 years). I sprayed down her enclosure very well and left her alone. I went up later and she was climbing back up. I only spray her once a day since I do not have free-standing water in her enclosure. I dont bother measuring her humidity anymore. Since I did away with the automatic mister I have had no shed issues. when I notice she is in blue I dump water in to the soil (I have a planted enclosure) and I let her be.

I am not the only keeper I know that experienced this. I have a friend who keeps the species and read to offer the 88F basking area and the animal went off food until the temperatures were restored to their original configuration. I'm starting to ascribe to the methodology that these animals prefer cooler temperatures (mid 80s) with smaller meals 10 days apart,

She has just been moved to ~25g rat pups and will likely remain on them for a long while she is fed between 7 and 10 days (she is 2years old and weighs close to ~200g) I let her go three feedings and then wait until I see poop before I offer her the next one. usually shes very obliging.

I think the ever-popular prolapse fear for this species is improper husbandry coupled with over-feeding. However GTPS are not the only animals that suffer from overfeeding. The sheer amount of fat beardeds, ball pythons, corn snakes, king snakes and the countless others is astounding.

I have since moved all of my animals to a meal 10-15% their body weight on a weekly schedule and have found it to be most beneficial. This method helps me to track how well they're gaining or maintaining their weight and takes the stress of debating whether the meal size was too small or too large.

it will be interesting to see how theories of chondro keeping will change

[Lankyrob]

I never heard about the prolapse issue until early this year, my guy was fed from a hatchling on rats approx 2-3 times his girth. Fed weekly for the first year and then on a rolling 14-21 day schedule from then on.

When we sold him recently he was taking 125-156g rats on this schedule with no issues.

[lady_bug87]

Rob I can eat a whole large pizza with no issues. Doesn't mean I should.

They do NOT need to eat that much in a meal. And even if YOU didn't have a problem it's irresponsible in my opinion to promote that as an acceptable husbandry practice

[Dave Kelley]

Rob I can eat a whole large pizza with no issues. Doesn't mean I should.

They do NOT need to eat that much in a meal. And even if YOU didn't have a problem it's irresponsible in my opinion to promote that as an acceptable husbandry practice

Took the words out of my mouth. Chondros aren't eating huge, fatty rats in the wild. They're eating frogs, lizards, and SMALL rodents potentially. Not 150g rats....

[Lankyrob]

Rob I can eat a whole large pizza with no issues. Doesn't mean I should.

They do NOT need to eat that much in a meal. And even if YOU didn't have a problem it's irresponsible in my opinion to promote that as an acceptable husbandry practice

I didnt promote it, i reported what i did. The guy i bought the snake from used to breed GTP's a lot, they are his favourite non-venomous snake and i took his word in regard to the husbandry. As i said i had no issues at all, it was only earlier this year when someone spoke about prolapses on here that i looked into it.

If someone took my single experience over what numerous breeders/keepers are doing/reporting then they are the irresponsible one imo

[lady_bug87]

So you're saying that because you're the ONLY one doing it that no one is going to actually try it? That's bull. ONE GUY with "experience" told you to do it this way and you were irresponsible enough to try it.

You are proof that there are keepers with an archaic, highly generalized view of python keeping that leads to the majority of care issues when delicate species fail to thrive because they treat a GTP like a ball python because they're both pythons

[Aanayab1]

I would like to mention that I'm not looking for a cut and dry care sheet because I've learned over time they do not exist for any of the species I have ever kept. I am just trying to get a general understanding of the care requirements. Watching and learning my animals habits, behavior and interaction with their enclosure will give me the only true answers to my questions. I concider any and all suggestions and research them when there is appropriate documentation. I agree fully with the statements mentioning no need to over feed, obiese animals make me just as sad as seeing an obiese human. I plan to listen to the radio broadcasts after this post, thank you for the links. I like the idea of feeding the 10-15% of body weight per meal. I read in one paper that in the wild GTPs are ambush hunters not avid trackers and because of this there are times of feast and famine. Resulting in times when all they eat is a small meal once a month. Taking that into concideration yet remembering the ones we keep as pets are not living in the wild I do not believe they should be over fed or underfed... It's finding the delicate balance of the two that can only be learned through careful observation of each individual animal. I know nothing first hand about this species so I can not say or argue what is best. I just need a good starting point for where to start out my fist neonate. I will pick up on it's preferences and build my knowledge from there. So far, until I meet the breeder ill buy from the only thing I have to base my husbandry goals off is maxwells book and the literature I've read that coincides with it. That may change and I am very open mined to everyone's suggestions and what has worked for all of you here. The reason I ask here is I know there are a lot of successful herp lovers and I value all information possible to keeping what will soon be another beautiful reptile. So thank you all for your helping me.

[lady_bug87]

Honestly I just started the 10-15% rule myself and it was the best thing I could have done I wish I did it sooner

[Mikoh4792]

So you're saying that because you're the ONLY one doing it that no one is going to actually try it? That's bull. ONE GUY with "experience" told you to do it this way and you were irresponsible enough to try it.

You are proof that there are keepers with an archaic, highly generalized view of python keeping that leads to the majority of care issues when delicate species fail to thrive because they treat a GTP like a ball python because they're both pythons

You're very feisty.

[Aaron_S]

You're very feisty.

Careful. She bites...

BUT it doesn't make her wrong.

[lady_bug87]

You're very feisty.

Compliment or complaint??

[Mikoh4792]

Compliment or complaint??

I don't see how that can be a complaint.

[smy_749]

David, they also eat flying prey such as birds and bats. Those get pretty big in Robs defense...

Wasnt this thread supposed to be about temps, lets stay on that subject because it was more interesting.

[smy_749]

I don't see how that can be a complaint.

You will if you get married lol

[lady_bug87]

I don't see how that can be a complaint.

Well I wouldn't normally think so but you'd be amazed...

[lady_bug87]

David, they also eat flying prey such as birds and bats. Those get pretty big in Robs defense...

Wasnt this thread supposed to be about temps, lets stay on that subject because it was more interesting.

I thought it was about husbandry in general. Lower temps would affect the way food is digested. Though you tried to come to Rob's defense his argument is still invalid. He's feeding RIDICULOUS sized food items WEEKLY if he combined larger items with high temps and longer periods then I can see your point. Being as it is I cant see the benefit of such a large meal.

[smy_749]

Maybe it is about husbandry in general Im on my phone and dont remember the OP concerns. I also dont know what a 150 gram rat looks like off the top of my head. I thought he said every 14 to 30 days (again cant see everything on my phone)

[lady_bug87]

Weekly for neonates and 14-21 after a year. Which even at 14 days is a large meal.

I would consider 21+ mildly acceptable for a meal size that big

[Lankyrob]

I thought it was about husbandry in general. Lower temps would affect the way food is digested. Though you tried to come to Rob's defense his argument is still invalid. He's feeding RIDICULOUS sized food items WEEKLY if he combined larger items with high temps and longer periods then I can see your point. Being as it is I cant see the benefit of such a large meal.

In my opinion neonates need more energy as they are growing more, as SMY said they can take much larger meals in the wild (not saying they should at every meal). And i heartily agree with Aarons opinion regarding food size that a snake wont take food that is too large for it.

My opinion with regard to the prolapses that others have experienced is that something else is wrong in regard to husbandry as i dont believe that prolapses would occur purely because of a large prey item. We have all seen snake poo, there is very little "waste" expelled in comparison to what is taken in, perhaps these experiences of prolapses are caused due to constipation rather than large prey?

[Aaron_S]

In my opinion neonates need more energy as they are growing more, as SMY said they can take much larger meals in the wild (not saying they should at every meal). And i heartily agree with Aarons opinion regarding food size that a snake wont take food that is too large for it.

My opinion with regard to the prolapses that others have experienced is that something else is wrong in regard to husbandry as i dont believe that prolapses would occur purely because of a large prey item. We have all seen snake poo, there is very little "waste" expelled in comparison to what is taken in, perhaps these experiences of prolapses are caused due to constipation rather than large prey?

Just because I'm mentioned I'd like to say you've taken my point slightly out of context. I use that in conjunction with a snake won't regurge because a meal is too large.

It has nothing to do with a large, fatty meal with a snake with a slower metabolism if it will eat it and keep it down or not. I wish there was a study done for this type of thing but I think it would have had to be at least a decade long as I see it more of a long term issue and less short term.

[lady_bug87]

In my opinion neonates need more energy as they are growing more, as SMY said they can take much larger meals in the wild (not saying they should at every meal). And i heartily agree with Aarons opinion regarding food size that a snake wont take food that is too large for it.

My opinion with regard to the prolapses that others have experienced is that something else is wrong in regard to husbandry as i dont believe that prolapses would occur purely because of a large prey item. We have all seen snake poo, there is very little "waste" expelled in comparison to what is taken in, perhaps these experiences of prolapses are caused due to constipation rather than large prey?

I agree that poor husbandry in general causes prolapse but meal size is a part of husbandry.

The argument that neonates require more energy so a larger meal is the answer is asinine at best. A neonate will use what it is given. Just because they may get bigger faster does NOT mean its healthy growth. I would call what you did power feeding. And I personally have an ethical problem with that.

You said here that they could take a larger food item but "should not for every meal' yet you boast feeding a meal size 2-3 times the width of the animal EVERY meal.

Like the OP said husbandry is subjective to the animal and your (in my opinion) limited experience only having raised one up should not dictate how proper husbandry of chondros and arboreals in general should be handled. Especially if it goes against the common standard of keeping in a way that could be harmful (though not proven to be.... Yet)

[Dave Kelley]

On the prolapse issue, let's back up.

Although I did mention larger meals being an issue, the meal referenced, would be excessively large mice or rats (which NO chondro ever needs.) Birds, I have no experience using with chondros, but those are way less fatty. The issue with larger meals and chondros, is that the rodents are heavy in fat, especially considering that these animals eat low fat prey in the wild (reptiles, amphibians, SMALL rodents, birds).
Consistently getting a fatty prey item week after week, month after month, just builds up the fat content in the animal, binds their system up, and causes prolapse. It's just not natural for chondros to be as large as we are seeing....they just aren't built for constant rat feedings.
The same thing could happen if fatty meals are offered to the animal, which has become dehydrated from too high of temperatures.

Hope this clears things up. Not feeling the best this morning, thus thought processing isn't the best, haha.

[Lankyrob]

Just because I'm mentioned I'd like to say you've taken my point slightly out of context. I use that in conjunction with a snake won't regurge because a meal is too large.

It has nothing to do with a large, fatty meal with a snake with a slower metabolism if it will eat it and keep it down or not. I wish there was a study done for this type of thing but I think it would have had to be at least a decade long as I see it more of a long term issue and less short term.

Apologies, i did misrepresent/misunderstand your point


I agree that poor husbandry in general causes prolapse but meal size is a part of husbandry.

The argument that neonates require more energy so a larger meal is the answer is asinine at best. A neonate will use what it is given. Just because they may get bigger faster does NOT mean its healthy growth. I would call what you did power feeding. And I personally have an ethical problem with that.

You said here that they could take a larger food item but "should not for every meal' yet you boast feeding a meal size 2-3 times the width of the animal EVERY meal.

Like the OP said husbandry is subjective to the animal and your (in my opinion) limited experience only having raised one up should not dictate how proper husbandry of chondros and arboreals in general should be handled. Especially if it goes against the common standard of keeping in a way that could be harmful (though not proven to be.... Yet)

I am also against power feeding as an ethical issue, i stand by my view that i didnt power feed any of my snakes, guess we can agree to disagree?


On the prolapse issue, let's back up.

Although I did mention larger meals being an issue, the meal referenced, would be excessively large mice or rats (which NO chondro ever needs.) Birds, I have no experience using with chondros, but those are way less fatty. The issue with larger meals and chondros, is that the rodents are heavy in fat, especially considering that these animals eat low fat prey in the wild (reptiles, amphibians, SMALL rodents, birds).
Consistently getting a fatty prey item week after week, month after month, just builds up the fat content in the animal, binds their system up, and causes prolapse. It's just not natural for chondros to be as large as we are seeing....they just aren't built for constant rat feedings.
The same thing could happen if fatty meals are offered to the animal, which has become dehydrated from too high of temperatures.

Hope this clears things up. Not feeling the best this morning, thus thought processing isn't the best, haha.

As far as i am aware my GTP was a healthy size - what do you think? http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/morelia-viridis/85909-profile-hogan.html

[BagnaraSnakes16]

Lanky Rob, couldn't tell ya, because I don't measure "humidity." It really doesn't matter because humidity here is being mistaken for hydration in the animal. Like I said, I never misted, instead just cleaning the water dish every other day or so and offered lower temperatures, and fed less often. The lower temps mean the snakes aren't overheating, feeding small meals every 2-4 weeks meant the snakes weren't constantly basking which in turn I'm guessing would dehydrate them further, as they are needing to bask more. Also, the smaller infrequent meals helped to combat the ever so common prolapse issue. Big meals being fed to frequently with dehydration is just asking for trouble IMO...

Aanayab1, no I have no peer reviewed literature, book, literature, etc. I'm basing this on the husbandry of long time herpetoculturists whom have worked with more species than most of us ever will, for longer than most of us have been in the hobby.



I do have two radio shows that may be of interest though, where Terry Phillip, head curator at Reptile Gardens in South Dakota, whom also holds a private collection under the moniker "Black Hills Pythons" has long preached this to the chondro community. Basically, he keeps his snakes at the recommended ambient temperature...78-82 constantly. Researching a bit, the one thing I would change is that I would allow for gradual night drops down to 70-72 degrees during the winter to allow for slight variation. This is what Ryan Young recommnded when I asked him about his husbandry. He keeps all his animals at that constant 80-82 degree temp and allows his animals to hit a 70 degree night drop during the winter.

As for long term success, well I really couldn't tell ya. But based off the longevity provided for animals under the Maxwell regime, I'd say it'd be better. Terry touches a bit about Maxwell's book in both interviews, so I recommend the listen.

Here are the radio shows, and the third link is an article that Ryan Young provided to Reptiles Magazine for Savu's, although he referred me to it for other species as well.

Morelia pythons radio Online Radio by Moreliapythonradio | Blog Talk Radio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/moreliapythonradio/2012/01/15/terry-phillip-talks-everything-moreliaJ)

Venomous to Morelia with Terry Phillip 12/13 by Larry X BT | Blog Talk Radio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptileradio/2009/12/13/to-be-announced)

Breeding the Savu Python (http://www.reptilechannel.com/snakes/breeding-snakes/breeding-savu-python.aspx)

considering that maxwells book says 83-85 degrees, ur 82 isnt much less. but it is interesting what ur saying ill look into it