View Full Version : Boa with Impaction
I am sorry to be reposting this, but I thought since the title topic of my other thread had deviated to this, that a more specific thread might get me some more help/answers.
I just got a Hog Island Boas who seems to have an impaction. I gave her a warm soak last night (about an hour) plus tried to gently massage her a bit. It did not pass. At one point, she looked like she was trying to push, but gave up. A red bulge came out of her vent (see pic). It went right back to normal after the soak.
I am wondering what to do. Are impactions usually hard to pass like this or do you think she needs a vet since it did not pass on the first soak? I put her in for another soak this morning, and she is much calmer than yesterday (dare I say that she seems to be enjoying it).
I am looking for any advice on what else I could do to help her. Or do you think she needs a vet right away?
http://i43.tinypic.com/epkwli.png
Starbuck
07-15-13, 08:11 AM
when you gently palpate her underside, what does it feel like? can you feel any distinct, hard lumps? if yes, how many and how big are they? If the snake is nervous she may tense up her abdominal muscles and you wont be able to feel anything.
It is important to press only very lightly, press only as hard as you would when wiping makeup off your eye, or squeezing a FULL tube of toothpaste.
my thoughts are impaction, egg bound, foreign body, or something else (?)
do you see her straining in her viv? what made you think she was impacted from the get-go?
AND ALSO: i would make an appointment with a vet. it sounds like something home-remedies wont be able to fix, as the soak didn't improve things. at the least, it may be a week or more before the vet can see you, so make the appointment now.
Hi, thanks for the reply.
Yes, I can feel a hard lump right near her vent. Let me go recheck to try to gauge the size better. MarvelFreak had suggested on a previous thread that she might have impaction, since I was trying to describe a bulge before her tail starts. There was also dried fecal matter peeking out of her vent (this dislodged). I have not seen her straining in her viv yet.
Just out of curiosity, what will a vet usually do in these situations? Are there medications to held induce it to pass or it is only an operation?
I am not the best at estimating, but it feels about 1.5" across the width of the underside of the snake. It does not feel like it is a like ball though. Unless I was not palpitating enough to feel it inside the snake. It is right before the vent. She is ~6ft long to give an idea of the size in relation to her.
Starbuck
07-15-13, 08:29 AM
a vet can use diagnostic tools and medications in order to assist the snake. Additionally, there are surgical options.
if i were a vet (give it a few years), i would ultrasound the vent/area to determine the cause of the impaction (make sure thats 100% what it was). I would then use a light sedative on the snake to minimize stress, and attempt an enema procedure using a diluted KY jelly solution and a rubber tube IF it was a fecal impaction. if that was not successful i would consult with the owner about either surgery (not actually a major undertaking as it is so close to the vent) or waiting and seeing if improved husbandry (bump up humidity, provide humid hide, possible fluid therapy for the snake) could fix the issue.
egg-binding would require surgery, as would a tumor/growth/foreign body obstructing the GI.
A simple prolapse would require husbandry corrections, improved hydration, and possible temporary medical intervention until the cause of the prolapse (dehydration) was corrected.
But i am not a vet, so someone with a degree on the wall probably has a much better idea of what to do!!!! Im looking through some of my medical text books now to further help you out.
Thanks for the reply and info. Her viv was very dry when I went to pick her up, open top with a heat light setup, no hide, just a water bowl. Her skin seems dry too, not smooth like my other snakes. I hope that it will pass on its own, but if not I got to do what I got to do. Poor snake.
Starbuck
07-15-13, 08:39 AM
for now i would definitely get a humid hide in place, and cover the top of her viv with tinfoil if she is still in a screen top. it may resolve itself with some TLC and proper husbandry.
ive found that snakes do take a few days to respond; i had a honduran milksnake also come from very very dry, subpar conditions (skin ssues, not impaction though).
hoping for the best, good luck xx
Thanks, I appreciate your advice. All that is already done. Will see how it goes, but I will call the vet anyways to make sure I can get an appointment in for next week if we need it. Thanks again.
Well, I guess we will have to see the vet. Look at the pic in the first post, the red bulge IS whatever is inside her. It is smooth and round. Has anyone seen anything like this before?!? What the heck is this, a tumor? Can tumors be perfectly smooth, I always imaged them as being lumpy. I tried to get another picture, but she was moving too much. Anyone have a clue how much a snake operation costs? Holy cow...
Starbuck
07-15-13, 06:58 PM
it could be an egg; you said you just got this boa? if she is egg-bound, and has been for some time, it will likely need to be removed along with her entire reproductive tract because the tissue of the oviduct adheres to the egg too much, and often cannot be separated and repaired.
It could be a tumor, some are not lumpy and are round instead. the cost of the surgery will depend largely on the extent of the involvement.
It could also be something else, like a prolapsed oviduct/colon/bladder/cloaca. the vet will be able to tell you more based on diagnostics and a more thorough examination than anyone can do over the internet.
Best of luck, keep us updated!
Thanks for the info. If she was eggbound for awhile would tissue grow over it like that and stop it from coming out, is that what you were saying? There were spider veins in the bulge and the "bump" seems to move inside of her. It does kind of feel like an "egg", but I have no idea how a snake egg would compare to my notion of an egg.
BTW, I know that no one can diagnose on the net, but it just helps to maybe have some sort of idea about what could be going on with her. I appreciate your posts.
Starbuck
07-15-13, 07:28 PM
when reptiles become egg bound very often the tissue of the oviduct (which is stretched very very thin while the eggs are developing) will adhere to the egg almost completely. As you said earlier, she came from a very sub-par situation previously? Dehydration can definitely cause dystocias. the reproductive tissue is highly vascularized, which may be why you are seeing 'spider veins' around the lump.
If it is an egg, i would expect it to feel slightly mobile within your snake, but relatively firm. snakes have leathery shelled eggs, but it should still feel 'hard'. a tumor would feel a bit softer, but i would definitely counsel you not to palpate too much, as the tissue could tear and then you have a much more serious issue.
I would try to contact the previous owner and see if and when she was ever bred, or if she dropped a clutch of eggs before you got her.
if it is an egg, i expect the vet will attempt a manual removal with lots of lubrication (same idea as the ky enema, but more carefully as it is an egg). if that doesnt work, i would expect surgery to remove the egg/oviduct/ovaries. one option is ovocentesis; where the contents of the egg are removed by needle aspirate, the egg can then be collapsed within the oviduct, and hopefully passed by the snake. I dont like this option as i think the oviduct tissue would be too adhered to the egg shell at this point and it wouldn't help.
again, your vet can hopefully tell you more, and who knows, it could be something i havnt even though of yet! :/
again, best of luck!
UPDATE:
Managed to get her into the vet today. The blockage is a urolith, and a pretty big one. He lubed her up and tried to removed it manually, did not work. He suggested surgery or euthanasia.
Has anyone ever had this kind of surgery done before? What was the outcome? What would you do in this situation? Would you get a second opinion? Thanks for any input.
lady_bug87
07-18-13, 05:20 PM
when reptiles become egg bound very often the tissue of the oviduct (which is stretched very very thin while the eggs are developing) will adhere to the egg almost completely. As you said earlier, she came from a very sub-par situation previously? Dehydration can definitely cause dystocias. the reproductive tissue is highly vascularized, which may be why you are seeing 'spider veins' around the lump.
If it is an egg, i would expect it to feel slightly mobile within your snake, but relatively firm. snakes have leathery shelled eggs, but it should still feel 'hard'. a tumor would feel a bit softer, but i would definitely counsel you not to palpate too much, as the tissue could tear and then you have a much more serious issue.
I would try to contact the previous owner and see if and when she was ever bred, or if she dropped a clutch of eggs before you got her.
if it is an egg, i expect the vet will attempt a manual removal with lots of lubrication (same idea as the ky enema, but more carefully as it is an egg). if that doesnt work, i would expect surgery to remove the egg/oviduct/ovaries. one option is ovocentesis; where the contents of the egg are removed by needle aspirate, the egg can then be collapsed within the oviduct, and hopefully passed by the snake. I dont like this option as i think the oviduct tissue would be too adhered to the egg shell at this point and it wouldn't help.
again, your vet can hopefully tell you more, and who knows, it could be something i havnt even though of yet! :/
again, best of luck!
I wasn't aware that a live bearing animal could be egg bound...
Lankyrob
07-18-13, 05:22 PM
Arent they oviviparous (sp?). Meaning they have eggs but they develop inside the body until they are ready to be born?
Wow, never heard of that so I googled it. It's a bladder stone, not an egg. Looks like the snake needs surgery or it will die.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I know that a urolith is not an egg. The mention of an egg was before we had got to the vet, when Starbuck was just mentioning what it *might* be.
KORBIN5895
07-18-13, 08:43 PM
I wasn't aware that a live bearing animal could be egg bound...
No. I'm pretty sure they can't.
lady_bug87
07-18-13, 08:45 PM
No. I'm pretty sure they can't.
Yea.... That was sarcasm...
Case of dystocia in Boa
Öåíòðàëíà âåòåðèíàðíà êëèíèêà - Egg-binding (Dystocia) in a boa (http://centralvetclinic.com/eng/index.php?section=NPAGES&aid=95)
Quote from a site on Boa constrictor (that seems pretty serious)
Duration of the Co-housing in Boa constrictor
Potential breeders have unknowingly kept themselves from being successful by separating their snakes too early. Ovulation in the female is often associated with an enormous gain in body girth. To simply assume gravidity and to miss out on further copulations by separating the animals is the easiest way to receive a bunch of slugs from the female. This also raises the possibility of egg binding (more about this topic later).
Mating of Boa c. constrictor | Stöckl - Die Nr.1 Boa constrictor Seite im Internet (http://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/Interesting_facts_about_Boa_constrictor/Boa_constrictor_Care/Breeding/Mating_of_Boa_constrictor)
Though I could not find the "more on that later". But maybe we can write and ask for more info??
lady_bug87
07-18-13, 08:57 PM
Well whaddaya know. Learn something new every day
Aaron_S
07-18-13, 09:04 PM
Yea.... That was sarcasm...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/frink_zpse1d2b61d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/godzilla99/media/frink_zpse1d2b61d.jpg.html)
Aaron_S
07-18-13, 09:05 PM
Case of dystocia in Boa
Öåíòðàëíà âåòåðèíàðíà êëèíèêà - Egg-binding (Dystocia) in a boa (http://centralvetclinic.com/eng/index.php?section=NPAGES&aid=95)
Quote from a site on Boa constrictor (that seems pretty serious)
Mating of Boa c. constrictor | Stöckl - Die Nr.1 Boa constrictor Seite im Internet (http://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/Interesting_facts_about_Boa_constrictor/Boa_constrictor_Care/Breeding/Mating_of_Boa_constrictor)
Though I could not find the "more on that later". But maybe we can write and ask for more info??
If you can find me the part where they are more than just sacs of babies I'd listen and read...
Anyone can post anything on the internet. It's not like things haven't been mislabeled before.
This thread was the first time I had ever even thought about it when Starbuck mentioned an egg (s/he does seem to be in vet school, so I figured I'd look it up). That's why I said, why not write the person who mentioned that on their site and ask why they seem to think it's a possibility (and what they define as "egg binding") if anyone's wondering why they would make such a statement.
Sorry, I don't want to be an a$$ so sorry if this post comes across like that, I am just worried about my own snake right now.
KORBIN5895
07-18-13, 09:25 PM
Yea.... That was sarcasm...
So was mine.
There is no shell to be reabsorbed. What does happen is the infertile egg congeals into a solid mass called a slug.
Well, could a retained slug cause a blockage? Maybe that's what they mean?
Starbuck
07-18-13, 10:14 PM
no, i made a mistake.
im mostly a colubrid person, so it slipped my mind that the OPs snake was a boa and a live-bearer. I apologize for giving you poor information. Im glad your vet caught the issue. Treatment for a urolith is similar to treatment for dystocia, but more complicated because you cannot simply remove the tract of tissue, as you can with an egg bound snake.
if you are unwilling to commit to surgery, i would suggest either a second opinion or repeated lube treatments. There is a chance that with repeated lube treatments the mass could become moveable. I would ask for a quote on surgery, just to cover your bases. It may not be terribly unreasonable.
again, i apologize for my error.
Starbuck
07-18-13, 10:16 PM
Well, could a retained slug cause a blockage? Maybe that's what they mean?
it could in theory but its unlikely, as Korbin mentioned, there is no porous shell which causes the adhesions to the reproductive tract, which causes the dystocia.
No problem. To be honest, to me "slug retention" and "egg-retention" could have meant the same thing... even an congealed, unshelled egg could still be considered an egg, right? Which is what I thought you had meant. I thought maybe a slug was not a textbook term (hence why you said egg and some other sites said egg), but more a term used by the hobby sort of thing. So I didn't think that it meant that boas had shelled eggs inside them, but rather that they might retain an unfertilized (slug) egg.
Anyways, all that aside.... sorry about the misunderstanding in terms. English not being my first language also might have contributed to it. So sorry for this deviation of the thread.
Back on topic, it's not that I am not willing to commit to surgery. Just that surgery has its risks too, which is why I would wonder if there might be another way to try to help her before deciding to operate or put her down. Is there no laser for snake stones? LOL. The vet said there are 3 things that might happen 1) he might be able to get the snake to pass the stone without surgery just by its muscles being more relaxed (under anesthesia), 2) he might only have to cut into the intestine though the vent (red part you see bulging out in pic) or 3) he might have to also cut into the snake's skin. He said there is a chance that the tract is too damaged to function properly after, which would mean death to the snake. And there is always the risk that any surgery has, even if everything is routine and goes "right".
Damn it, I was holding back tears at the vet, felt like a real goof, lol.
Snakesitter
07-19-13, 01:51 PM
I don't envy you such a hard choice, Hylia. I would ask for a price quote on the surgery and percentage chance of success, then call two other reptile vets to get comparisons. You may find someone who is both less costly and has more experience with this procedure. However, if someone else is lower but you really like the first vet best, you can always go back and politely ask to negotiate as you'd rather give them the business. Good luck to both you and your pet.
Thanks for the reply, Snakesitter. It is a very hard decision to consider, but it looks like one that I no longer have to make.
I checked on her and she seemed like she was straining. I had to be off for work, so I didn't really know what do do. I put her in a secure tub with some warm water and left for the day.
When I came home, I could not believe my eyes. She had passed the blockage! I guess the vet dislodged it just enough to help her pass it herself when he was fooling around in her, even though he could not get it out himself. I also wonder if being on the metal exam table (is this common practice with herps?) did not help matters either. Seems kinda chilly for a reptile, which I guess could have tensed her up? Anyways, it is really scary to think that euthanasia was even put on the table. We are very lucky (as are the animals in our care) to live in such an age where we have the chance to communicate with experts and other hobbyists at the tip of our fingers.
So here is a pic of her rear before and after. she still seems a bit swollen down them (but no lumps can be felt), I would imagine this is to be expected after having been so blocked up? Also, I have never really handled such a large snake before, so maybe it is normal to see where the body ends and the tail starts (from above) which I don't see in my other boas.
Now that this has passed, are there chances that she hurt herself inside? What signs do I look for? Should she go on some antibiotics for prevention in case she hurt herself inside (like a fissure or something)?
Thanks again for reading and my apologies again for the bit of misunderstading from before.
Before:
http://i43.tinypic.com/fw7sdh.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/dpvjt3.jpg
After:
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qs77n7.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2h80q49.png
smy_749
07-20-13, 06:50 PM
How is the vent looking now, looks like its gaping open in the last picture? How did you keep the tub of water warm all day? I wouldn't have advised all day soaking but its too late now and she passed the blockage.
Thanks for the reply. I think the vent just looked like that because of the way that the tail was being held up. The scales lie flat and the cloaca is closed. I had seen over night soaks recommended on several sites for different problems, so I though that a couple hours would be okay (I only worked a 1/2 day). I did not keep the water warm, I just filled it warm. And I'll add that it was not filled deep, the snake's nostrils were our of the water when she rested her head on the bottom. What length of soak do you recommend? (not necessarily for this problem, but in general).
smy_749
07-20-13, 07:10 PM
Thanks for the reply. I think the vent just looks like that because of the way that the tail was being held up. The scales lie flat and the cloaca is closed. I had seen over night soaks recommended on several sites for different problems, so I though that a couple hours would be okay (I only worked a 1/2 day). I did not keep the water warm, I just filled it warm. And I'll add that it was not filled deep, the snake's nostrils were our of the water when she rested her head on the bottom. What length of soak do you recommend? (not necessarily for this problem, but in general).
I don't know what is the maximum length of time people recommend, I personally only do them for short periods of time if the snake has stuck shed, otherwise I don't do em. The issue I had was a soak for any period of time, without the animal being observed/monitored.
Anyways, congrats. Thats very good news.
rocknhorse76
07-20-13, 07:17 PM
I'm glad to hear that she passed it. I'd take her back to the vet for another exam to make sure everything is ok.
I don't know what is the maximum length of time people recommend, I personally only do them for short periods of time if the snake has stuck shed, otherwise I don't do em. The issue I had was a soak for any period of time, without the animal being observed/monitored.
Anyways, congrats. Thats very good news.
You are very right, that is a very legit concern and one that crossed my mind at the time, though I admit that I didn't know which would be the lesser of the two evils, which is why I did it but did not put much water. But, I think that you are right and it will not be something that I'd think of doing again. Thank you very much for your input.
I'm glad to hear that she passed it. I'd take her back to the vet for another exam to make sure everything is ok.
Thanks for your advice. I have Wednesday off, do you think that this would be reasonable or should I try to get her in super asap (they will be open Monday)?
Starbuck
07-20-13, 08:55 PM
I think waiting until wednesday would be fine at this point. I'm very relieved to hear that she passed the urolith, I'm sure you must be feeling worlds better (and she does as well).
I'd be looking to the vet palpate for more uroliths, possible xray or ultrasound. I would make sure you are watching her cage lj ke a hawk, as the vet will want to know that she is passing urates and feces normally. This will be the best indicator that things are ok internally. The fact that she was able to pass it on her own and without human forced assistance makes me think it is umlikely that she would be injured enough to need additional treatments.
I would ask the vet about what he thinks could have caused it, signs to look for if it happens again, and what to do to possibly prevent it in the future. I suspect its a combi ation of inactivity and dehydration from her previous home.
If you can find me the part where they are more than just sacs of babies I'd listen and read...
Anyone can post anything on the internet. It's not like things haven't been mislabeled before.
genius at work again :)
Slugs (unfertilized eggs) can get stuck/impacted
Glad you took her to a vet tho, glad your vet was actually able to figure out what it was and all worked out well :)
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