Lets try this again...here are my pets

[slowhite03]

Don't know what happened with that last post but I just thought I would show off what I'm working with. First two pictures is of my variable King snake, Craig, and his enclosure, He is on reptile carpet because he was having respiratory issues with aspen. The next two are of my Mexican Black king snake, Toby. The last two are of my Pacific tree frog, George.

[slowhite03]

Here is George

[sweatshirt]

Awesome pets =)

[Mikoh4792]

Nice enclosures. How old is your MBK? Does he ever bite you when you handle him?

[slowhite03]

Toby is about a year and a half, he used to but with a lot of work he is a lot better.

[Mikoh4792]

Toby is about a year and a half, he used to but with a lot of work he is a lot better.

Would he bite defensively or as a feeding response? Did you use the hook training method? I have a Cali king about two years old that tries to eat me whenever I'm around

[slowhite03]

defensive, when I first got him he did not want to be touched. I used the hook, I just grab him with the hook every time i take him out.

[B_Aller]

Why the 1970"s husbandry?
Open topped enclosure with carpet for substrate?
I thought we had moved forward from this type of husbandry, granted I haven't been on too many "Hobby" sites for a while but really? People here think these types of set ups for reptiles are acceptable?
This breaks my heart. There have been massive advances in reptile husbandry in the last 20-30 years, why are these highly successful methods rejected by the hobby, are people here really not exposed to the advances in husbandry available? Has this poster ever seen a meat dehydrator? The set ups here are exactly the same, humidity attaches to heat and it rises, robbing the cage inhabitants of their vital needs, leading to gout and early death.
Please upgrade the husbandry to at least the 1990's
Best.
Ben Aller

[lady_bug87]

Yea I'm really not a fan of repticarpet....

[Aaron_S]

Why the 1970"s husbandry?
Open topped enclosure with carpet for substrate?
I thought we had moved forward from this type of husbandry, granted I haven't been on too many "Hobby" sites for a while but really? People here think these types of set ups for reptiles are acceptable?
This breaks my heart. There have been massive advances in reptile husbandry in the last 20-30 years, why are these highly successful methods rejected by the hobby, are people here really not exposed to the advances in husbandry available? Has this poster ever seen a meat dehydrator? The set ups here are exactly the same, humidity attaches to heat and it rises, robbing the cage inhabitants of their vital needs, leading to gout and early death.
Please upgrade the husbandry to at least the 1990's
Best.
Ben Aller

You said it better than I ever could.

I also find that repticarpet harbours a lot of bacteria and is relatively gross.

To be honest though many people just "do as they want" because their animal looks fine and someone will ALWAYS be just as uninformed and back up any keeper.

[EL Ziggy]

Can someone point out the problems with the op's husbandry for me please? I thought everything was apropos. I actually liked the setup. I'm not a fan of repticarpet but I didn't think there was anything 'wrong' with this but correct me if I'm mistaken. My kings are set up quite similarly. They're both in 40 gal vivs, both on aspen, have multiple hides, a water dish, uth and a basking light. What's 'outdated' about that? I'm new to the hobby but I thought those were the things along with food, water, and kindness that my snakes needed to thrive. What upgrades/advances should I, and others, be aware of? Please show us what a 'proper' enclosure should look like. TIA

[KORBIN5895]

Why the 1970"s husbandry?
Open topped enclosure with carpet for substrate?
I thought we had moved forward from this type of husbandry, granted I haven't been on too many "Hobby" sites for a while but really? People here think these types of set ups for reptiles are acceptable?
This breaks my heart. There have been massive advances in reptile husbandry in the last 20-30 years, why are these highly successful methods rejected by the hobby, are people here really not exposed to the advances in husbandry available? Has this poster ever seen a meat dehydrator? The set ups here are exactly the same, humidity attaches to heat and it rises, robbing the cage inhabitants of their vital needs, leading to gout and early death.
Please upgrade the husbandry to at least the 1990's
Best.
Ben Aller

Thanks for the backhanded slap at the forum.

Just so you know he was advised against it. You could Even check his thread history and see where we said it was a bad idea.

@El-Ziggy

His set up will destroy humidity.

[EL Ziggy]

@El-Ziggy

His set up will destroy humidity.[/QUOTE]

@ Korbin

As I indicated, I have a similar set up and don't want any issues in the future. I didn't think humidity was a big concern for most kings. I've read that they typically need their humidity levels to stay between 40-60% which isn't hard to maintain, especially in a state like GA. I thought a moist hide during shedding was the most they should need. Is this incorrect? Thanks again.

[Amadeus]

Why the 1970"s husbandry?
Open topped enclosure with carpet for substrate?
I thought we had moved forward from this type of husbandry, granted I haven't been on too many "Hobby" sites for a while but really? People here think these types of set ups for reptiles are acceptable?
This breaks my heart. There have been massive advances in reptile husbandry in the last 20-30 years, why are these highly successful methods rejected by the hobby, are people here really not exposed to the advances in husbandry available? Has this poster ever seen a meat dehydrator? The set ups here are exactly the same, humidity attaches to heat and it rises, robbing the cage inhabitants of their vital needs, leading to gout and early death.
Please upgrade the husbandry to at least the 1990's
Best.
Ben Aller

Elitist^^^^

Maybe you could make a few suggestions....

[nyx]

Elitist^^^^

Not pandering to the lowest common denominator isn't elitism; it's common sense.

Apparently advice has been given. Why throw good after bad?

[Amadeus]

Not pandering to the lowest common denominator isn't elitism; it's common sense.

Apparently advice has been given. Why throw good after bad?

Could you point out the usable advice? Not just something like "make it better" but actual advice on improving the setups? You can't because none was given.

For someone with common sense like yourself you'd think you'd understand what a denominator is.

[KORBIN5895]

The op was already told it wasn't a good idea and he ignored it.

[slowhite03]

I didn't ignore it, if you would have read my original post i said he is on carpet because aspen is to dusty and he was having trouble breathing. Sorry if i put my snakes health first. he has been on carpet for about 3 months and is perfectly healthy. When he poops I clean it off and give them a thorough cleaning every month just like you're supposed to.

[lady_bug87]

Nice try.

I remember that thread. And more than one gave you cost effective, naturalistic looking alternatives to that bacteria farm.

[slowhite03]

Yes they did but every thing mentioned was dust prone. So nice try in starting an argument

[EL Ziggy]

Not trying to meddle but is the issue the repticarpet that's being used or were there other errors with the op's husbandry? Again, I'm only asking because my set ups are very similar except I do use aspen which I guess the op's snake had issues with. Just trying to make sure I'm not doing anything that would harm my pets.

[B_Aller]

Don't have much time but I'll try and address some of these issues.
Most importantly for the people who are unfamiliar with modern husbandry,.
A brief synopsis of the basic tenets of modern reptile husbandry.
Open topped or screen topped enclosures are a huge no no, they are never o.k for reptiles, ever (amphibians, o.k but not reps). Enclosures must be solid topped with the lights inside, any ventilation (if offered) should be at substrate level. Bulb guards can be used for snakes but never for lizards.
Here's why:
Reptiles are designed to retain both heat and humidity, they are not designed to be constantly replenished with fresh water, they are all about moisture retention. Screen tops allow all of the humidity to attach to heat and rise out of the enclosure, dehydrating the animal. A fish tank with a screen top will not hold any humidity, check out a meat dehydrator, seriously, google it up. Imagine what your organs would look like and feel like if you lived your whole life in a meat dehydrator! Not fun. The fact that many of these reps don't perish quickly is not a testament to these types of set ups being acceptable, it's a testament to how amazing their ability is to weather harsh conditions and hide stress and disease.
Next up, thermal gradient.
The idea behind modern husbandry is to give the animals MORE than they need not less and allow them to be animals. meaning, you should be offering a few degrees higher temps than needed and a few degrees lower than needed, both MUST be available AND the animal must not be forced to choose between optimum temp and security( more on this later)
So for these types of animals say 100-110F hot side, 60-65F cool side.
Ambient temps are worthless to reptiles, surface temps are all that matters.
Then we get to substrate.
Earth, dirt, sandy loam, leaflitter, these are acceptable substrates. When you go out and look for reptiles in the wild do you see them everytime? No. Why? because they live inside of something (usually the ground) they do this for security and to retain moisture.
Substrate should be able to hold a burrow, should allow the animal to get inside it, they need to be able to use their hides to help retain moisture.
Now, one other very important aspect of modern husbandry is that the enclosure you keep your reptile in is not it's home...it's it's environment or habitat and it MUST have multiple homes within its habitat (that whole choosing thing).
So.... in a nutshell, no open tops, big thermal gradient, deep substrate, and a home....seems pretty simple to me and guess what? It works.
Now for Amadeus, if trying to improve the lives of reptiles in captivity is "elitist", I can live with that label. I'm not a fan of keeping it stupid, I'd like to elevate the conversation.
As far as a back handed slap at the forum (forget who said it), I'm new here I didn't know the history, but if this was already gone over shouldn't you be happy that others are agreeing with you? Wouldn't this just be one more voice of reason chiming in? Why do you think a knee jerk reaction is productive or adds to the conversation?
I'm not trying to be a jerk or start fights, but this type of husbandry is why we have such a huge threat to our hobby, this is not O.K and needs to be pointed out.
Fish tanks are for fish. screen tops are a death sentence for reptiles. repticarpet is unacceptable.
Sorry I don't have time for more.
Thanks.
Ben

[slowhite03]

Repti carpet is fine, I have 3 sheets. When they poop, I hose it off and let it air dry. Every couple of weeks I clean them with wipe out. The critics are going to say it spreads bacteria but my counter argument to that is when they spot clean there tanks do they get every ounce of poop/pee? I doubt it. So no matter what substrate you get, bacteria is bound to be there

[slowhite03]

About this open top, that all depends on where you live. My humidity is a constant 40-60%. Both my snakes have complete sheds.

[B_Aller]

About this open top, that all depends on where you live. My humidity is a constant 40-60%. Both my snakes have complete sheds.

This is a lame excuse and shows you don't comprehend the animals or their environment. I don't care where you live, under a heat lamp with a screen top you will not have humidity. Don't get all mad at me, take a second to breathe and think, then do some research, you will find this info has been around and trying to get through to the masses for over 40 years.
Screen tops are a death sentence, period.

[smy_749]

About this open top, that all depends on where you live. My humidity is a constant 40-60%. Both my snakes have complete sheds.

Just because humidity in your area of the country is 40 - 60 , doesn't mean inside the enclosure it will be. Its an enclosed space, and the lamp heats the air, and it rises out, constantly. The air flow is up and out of the top. Get two identical humidity gauges and put one in a different room, and one in your enclosure and let me know if they are the same..

[lady_bug87]

Yes they did but every thing mentioned was dust prone. So nice try in starting an argument

Newspaper
Paper towel
Craft paper
Ceramic tile
Top soil
Coco husk

All of these are substrates which were recommended they produce minimal /no dust and they are fairly inexpensive not to mention better than that disgusting bacteria farm. If you weren't so lazy and actually bothered to have a proper environment this wouldn't be an issue.

I don't need to try and start arguments with you. I have people to do that for me.

[Aaron_S]

Repti carpet is fine, I have 3 sheets. When they poop, I hose it off and let it air dry. Every couple of weeks I clean them with wipe out. The critics are going to say it spreads bacteria but my counter argument to that is when they spot clean there tanks do they get every ounce of poop/pee? I doubt it. So no matter what substrate you get, bacteria is bound to be there

I use tubs. I can easily wipe out every tub I have, every time. In fact I am prone to using a handheld steamer to ensure I get in the corners.

You are wrong.

[slowhite03]

I had no idea I was going to have to defend myself but whatever. Sorry I didn't mention because I thought it would be understood that I was talking about the tank humidity but I forgot I was dealing with people who just want to argue. I did the paper towels. I did paper towels but as you must of read seeing how you researched everything I've posted, I didn't like the seams so I wanted a solid piece. Anymore arguments

[Lankyrob]

If you want a solid piece in the tank then use butchers paper, it comes in big rolls, tear a piece to fit the tank, then bin it when dirty. All the benefits of carpet but no bacteria farm

[smy_749]

If you can really clean the repti-carpet so thoroughly as to not harbor anything harmful then fine, you can get around that (throwing you a bone here)...

The real issue is the screen top / heat lamp combo. Living in a humid environment is not a way around the issues at hand, because you are creating a separate microenvironment inside the tank.

[Mikoh4792]

Don't have much time but I'll try and address some of these issues.
Most importantly for the people who are unfamiliar with modern husbandry,.
A brief synopsis of the basic tenets of modern reptile husbandry.
Open topped or screen topped enclosures are a huge no no, they are never o.k for reptiles, ever (amphibians, o.k but not reps). Enclosures must be solid topped with the lights inside, any ventilation (if offered) should be at substrate level. Bulb guards can be used for snakes but never for lizards.
Here's why:
Reptiles are designed to retain both heat and humidity, they are not designed to be constantly replenished with fresh water, they are all about moisture retention. Screen tops allow all of the humidity to attach to heat and rise out of the enclosure, dehydrating the animal. A fish tank with a screen top will not hold any humidity, check out a meat dehydrator, seriously, google it up. Imagine what your organs would look like and feel like if you lived your whole life in a meat dehydrator! Not fun. The fact that many of these reps don't perish quickly is not a testament to these types of set ups being acceptable, it's a testament to how amazing their ability is to weather harsh conditions and hide stress and disease.
Next up, thermal gradient.
The idea behind modern husbandry is to give the animals MORE than they need not less and allow them to be animals. meaning, you should be offering a few degrees higher temps than needed and a few degrees lower than needed, both MUST be available AND the animal must not be forced to choose between optimum temp and security( more on this later)
So for these types of animals say 100-110F hot side, 60-65F cool side.
Ambient temps are worthless to reptiles, surface temps are all that matters.
Then we get to substrate.
Earth, dirt, sandy loam, leaflitter, these are acceptable substrates. When you go out and look for reptiles in the wild do you see them everytime? No. Why? because they live inside of something (usually the ground) they do this for security and to retain moisture.
Substrate should be able to hold a burrow, should allow the animal to get inside it, they need to be able to use their hides to help retain moisture.
Now, one other very important aspect of modern husbandry is that the enclosure you keep your reptile in is not it's home...it's it's environment or habitat and it MUST have multiple homes within its habitat (that whole choosing thing).
So.... in a nutshell, no open tops, big thermal gradient, deep substrate, and a home....seems pretty simple to me and guess what? It works.
Now for Amadeus, if trying to improve the lives of reptiles in captivity is "elitist", I can live with that label. I'm not a fan of keeping it stupid, I'd like to elevate the conversation.
As far as a back handed slap at the forum (forget who said it), I'm new here I didn't know the history, but if this was already gone over shouldn't you be happy that others are agreeing with you? Wouldn't this just be one more voice of reason chiming in? Why do you think a knee jerk reaction is productive or adds to the conversation?
I'm not trying to be a jerk or start fights, but this type of husbandry is why we have such a huge threat to our hobby, this is not O.K and needs to be pointed out.
Fish tanks are for fish. screen tops are a death sentence for reptiles. repticarpet is unacceptable.
Sorry I don't have time for more.
Thanks.
Ben

Thanks for the information, it's only been a while since I figured it was better to have a larger thermal gradient(higher temps, lower temps)

Would you mind showing us a few pictures of your set ups?

[smy_749]

Mikoh, he has a few pics of his olivaceous and dumerils setups on his welcome thread.

[Mikoh4792]

Mikoh, he has a few pics of his olivaceous and dumerils setups on his welcome thread.

I want to see pictures to compare for snakes, I've already seen those pictures.

[KORBIN5895]

A dumerils is a snake.

[Mikoh4792]

A dumerils is a snake.

I think he's talking about the dumeril's monitor. Not boa.

[EL Ziggy]

Ok, so my kings shouldnt have an screen top because the 75 watt red florescent light that I use for 3-4 hours a day will dehydrate them to the tune of a slow cruel death? In spite of the fact they don't have a high humidity requirement and they have a continuos source of clean, fresh water to drink and soak in? I havent heard that before in any of the care guides I've read and I've done quite a bit of research. I must admit I find that difficult to believe. There is no way to create a totally natural habitual when you keep an animal in CAPTIVITY but I strive to provide them the most comfortable environment I can with and endless supply of love, food, water, shelter and without the threat of predators. I don't think you can do much more for any animal. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm open to that but I see like most information-it is subjective-and you just have to take it in, process and filter it, and do what you think is best for you and yours. I get lots of helpful information from this forum once I get thru the static of egos and bickering. Gotta take the good with the bad, such is life. Be well all.

[Mikoh4792]

Ok, so my kings shouldnt have an screen top because the 75 watt red florescent light that I use for 3-4 hours a day will dehydrate them to the tune of a slow cruel death? In spite of the fact they don't have a high humidity requirement and they have a continuos source of clean, fresh water to drink and soak in? I havent heard that before in any of the care guides I've read and I've done quite a bit of research. I must admit I find that difficult to believe. There is no way to create a totally natural habitual when you keep an animal in CAPTIVITY but I strive to provide them the most comfortable environment I can with and endless supply of love, food, water, shelter and without the threat of predators. I don't think you can do much more for any animal. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm open to that but I see like most information-it is subjective-and you just have to take it in, process and filter it, and do what you think is best for you and yours. I get lots of helpful information from this forum once I get thru the static of egos and bickering. Gotta take the good with the bad, such is life. Be well all.

Why do you have the heat lamp on for such a short period of time a day?

[EL Ziggy]

Why do you have the heat lamp on for such a short period of time a day?

@Mikoh
I touched on that in another thread recently. I was asking about keeping that light on continuously because I was concerned about the basking spot being so hot. I don't like the thought of it staying on all day while I'm at work, so I usually just turn it on when I get home until I go to sleep, so its on for more like 5 hours (usually 7-12).

[Mikoh4792]

@Mikoh
I touched on that in another thread recently. I was asking about keeping that light on continuously because I was concerned about the basking spot being so hot. I don't like the thought of it staying on all day while I'm at work, so I usually just turn it on when I get home until I go to sleep, so its on for more like 5 hours (usually 7-12).

That's what the rest of the cage is for, to cool off. Your snakes should still be allowed the choice of a hotspot so it can thermoregulate. Caresheets reccomend a hotspot of around 90F for carpet pythons. I give both of my carpets hotspots close to 100F. As they move further away from the hotspot they can choose to bask at 98F, 93F, 88F...etc. While the heat is on, the coolest side of their enclosures measure 77-79F during the day.

Also you wouldn't have to worry if you were using a thermostat. Get a thermostat and control your temperatures instead of guessing and only providing a couple to several hours of heat a day.

[EL Ziggy]

That's what the rest of the cage is for, to cool off. Your snakes should still be allowed the choice of a hotspot so it can thermoregulate. Caresheets reccomend a hotspot of around 90F for carpet pythons. I give both of my carpets hotspots close to 100F. As they move further away from the hotspot they can choose to bask at 98F, 93F, 88F...etc. While the heat is on, the coolest side of their enclosures measure 77-79F during the day.

Also you wouldn't have to worry if you were using a thermostat. Get a thermostat and control your temperatures instead of guessing and only providing a couple to several hours of heat a day.
I definitely need thermostats. l realize thats pretty important. A timer sounds like a good idea too. I'll have those things in a few weeks after I finish some car repairs and get the baby new school clothes, after celebrating his birthday this week : ). Im just pacing myself. I use digital thermoters and currently their hot sides average 85-90 without the lamps and 94-100 with the lamps. Both my kings tend to stay in their cool side hides consistently, but do go to the warm hides too, mostly when they've just eaten or when they're ready to shed. They will perch and bask sometimes but they're usually roaming or hiding.

[Mikoh4792]

I definitely need thermometers, l realize thats pretty important. A timer sounds like a good idea too. I'll have those things in a few weeks after I finish some car repairs and get the baby new school clothes, after celebrating his birthday this week : ). Im just pacing myself. Currently their hot sides average 85-90 without the lamps and 94-100 with the lamps. Both my kings tend to stay in their cool side hides consistently, but do go to the warm hides too, mostly when they've just eaten or when they're ready to shed. They will perch and bask sometimes but they're usually roaming or hiding.

Why is it so hot without the lamps? Are you using an under tank heater as well?

[B_Aller]

Ok, so my kings shouldnt have an screen top because the 75 watt red florescent light that I use for 3-4 hours a day will dehydrate them to the tune of a slow cruel death? In spite of the fact they don't have a high humidity requirement and they have a continuous source of clean, fresh water to drink and soak in? I havent heard that before in any of the care guides I've read and I've done quite a bit of research. I must admit I find that difficult to believe. There is no way to create a totally natural habitual when you keep an animal in CAPTIVITY

well this is as good a place to start as any I guess,
Yes, to re-iterate, your kingsnake should not have a screen top, a 75 watt bulb in a 40 gal aquarium for 3-4 hours a day is way off. For that size enclosure you should never need more than a 25-45 watt bulb, this is a great example of what I was speaking of, giving the animal a chance to be an animal by providing everything it needs 24-7 and letting it choose. You are not getting a proper thermal gradient with that wattage of bulb and that size enclosure, that's why you force the animal to be on your schedule, not theirs. Why do you keep the bulb on for those hours? did the snake tell you those were the hours it would like to bask? Why not provide everything the animal needs all the time and let it show you what a kingsnake is.
You say your snake does not have a "high" humidity requirement, you are missing the point, where do these snakes live in nature? they live in the ground. Why? security and to RETAIN moisture. How humid is a burrow?
How does a constant low level dehydration effect their physiology?
High humidity is NOT what your after, you want to reduce the moisture loss not constantly replace it. Fresh water is not the point (yes they should always have access) you want to avoid the loss in the first place. It has nothing to do with tropical/desert etc. all reps are designed to limit moisture loss, you are working HARD against that when providing an open topped enclosure. Did you look into what a meat dehydrator looks like or how it functions? please do.

Where are you doing your research? in pet or hobby mags/websites?
This basic modern husbandry principle was laid out by "The father of Zoo biology" Heni Hediger,(in the 1960's!!) the most famous animal behaviorist since Pavlov, also called "the father of animals in captivity" but many, many others have carried on this work, this is not new or groundbreaking or any such thing, it's common sense and applied knowledge, please don't take it form me, PLEASE DON'T believe me...just look into it yourself.
As for your last line in this quote, check out my signature below and ask yourself, why a guy who designs and builds animal enclosures and zoo exhibits to put food on the table would be promoting this concept and what does it mean.
Thanks.

[EL Ziggy]

Why is it so hot without the lamps? Are you using an under tank heater as well?

Yes I use uth on both tanks.

[Mikoh4792]

x

I was going to pm you but I figured incase others are wondering the same thing I should ask publicly.

What is your view on belly heat vs over head heating in enclosures, and back heating in rack systems?

[EL Ziggy]

Thanks for the information BA, I dont doubt your knowledge and expertise and I'll have to do more research on your theories.

[B_Aller]

Thanks for the information BA, I dont doubt your knowledge and expertise and I'll have to do more research on your theories.
Thanks, I really am not trying to be an ***, I just care about animals in captivity and want to help improve our overall understanding of them, I think keeping (some)animals in captivity can be a really cool way for everyone to be involved in learning and sharing, but we need to get the basics down so we can move forward as a community.
Best.
Oh, and they aren't my theories, not even close.

[Amadeus]

Definitely theories....

[B_Aller]

Definitely theories....
O.K Amadeus, seeing as you would like to demand that everyone else provide detailed explanations of their advice, but are only willing to offer up snarky insults and questionable insight,
how about we turn the tables on you.

You dismiss my information, do tell us then, does moisture attach to heat?
Does heat rise? Is this a theory or is it called convection?

Are reptiles designed to retain both moisture and heat, or is this a theory?

Are there 100's of studies done on the evolutionary design modifications of reptiles from the fossil record forward, or is it just guesses as to how and why their physiology is the way it is?

Is the statement that reptiles have a home and it's IN something true and verified through peer reviewed scientific research, or is this a theory?

Is the amazing success of keepers and breeders who practice this type of husbandry a theory?

What about the fact that this information has been out there and utilized by animal keepers all over the globe with fantastic results for years, is that a theory? Could those results be demonstrated?

Are you just threatened by critical thinking or is that a theory of mine?

Are you a part of the problem, promoting antiquated husbandry practices or a part of the solution?

Before you ask me another question, answer these.

So yeah.. you are right modern reptile husbandry is just a theory......kinda like gravity....just a theory.
Ben Aller

[smy_749]

O.K Amadeus, seeing as you would like to demand that everyone else provide detailed explanations of their advice, but are only willing to offer up snarky insults and questionable insight,
how about we turn the tables on you.

You dismiss my information, do tell us then, does moisture attach to heat?
Does heat rise? Is this a theory or is it called convection?

Are reptiles designed to retain both moisture and heat, or is this a theory?

Are there 100's of studies done on the evolutionary design modifications of reptiles from the fossil record forward, or is it just guesses as to how and why their physiology is the way it is?

Is the statement that reptiles have a home and it's IN something true and verified through peer reviewed scientific research, or is this a theory?

Is the amazing success of keepers and breeders who practice this type of husbandry a theory?

What about the fact that this information has been out there and utilized by animal keepers all over the globe with fantastic results for years, is that a theory? Could those results be demonstrated?

Are you just threatened by critical thinking or is that a theory of mine?

Are you a part of the problem, promoting antiquated husbandry practices or a part of the solution?

Before you ask me another question, answer these.

So yeah.. you are right modern reptile husbandry is just a theory......kinda like gravity....just a theory.
Ben Aller

GETTUM ! [He will have a response for it though lol don't get your hopes up]

[B_Aller]

I was going to pm you but I figured incase others are wondering the same thing I should ask publicly.

What is your view on belly heat vs over head heating in enclosures, and back heating in rack systems?

Weird, I answered this last night but it's not up, maybe I screwed up somehow,it was late, and I was drinking.

Don't want to go off on another tangent but I'm not a fan of racks, took the fun and soul right out of the hobby in my opinion, but let's leave that for another day.
I'm mainly an overhead heat guy, I prefer to use banks of lights for heating as it's just super easy to tell if they're working or not. But...I do use under and side substrate heating for several applications and I use many different types of heater in the exhibits I build ( some work great, others...not so much) so it's not that cut and dried.
For the smaller set ups I prefer overhead, easy to tell if it's on, easy to adjust etc...gotta run out of time.
Best

[Amadeus]

So yeah.. you are right modern reptile husbandry is just a theory......kinda like gravity....just a theory.
Ben Aller

Yep I know. I'm always correct.

[B_Aller]

GETTUM ! [He will have a response for it though lol don't get your hopes up]
Hey Sammy,
It's not about "getting" him it's about trying to "get through"
Obviously people like Amadeus and the O.P are lost causes and not worth wasting time on, but if you notice a few posters with the ability for cognitive thought were at least exposed to some new information and MAYBE will even look into it further, those are the people we hope to "get through" to.
Our hobby is in serious trouble and not long for this world if we don't shape up quick. 99% of the public doesn't care if we can own reptiles, most think we shouldn't, and when you see set ups like the O.P's it's hard to disagree with them. As a community we have to progress, and fast or we are going to lose our rights.
Forget about the slow minds and just keep putting good info and support out there, as well as showing a better way and we MIGHT be able to retain our right to keep animals in captivity, but it's going to be tough, and judging by this type of thread, there is still so much work to do. This was the first thread I read on the enclosure board, couldn't even get past the first post without seeing horrible antiquated husbandry promoted in 2013...scary and sad. I'm a bit apprehensive to even view other posts in this section!
Best.
Ben

[Amadeus]

Hey Sammy,
It's not about "getting" him it's about trying to "get through"
Obviously people like Amadeus and the O.P are lost causes and not worth wasting time on, but if you notice a few posters with the ability for cognitive thought were at least exposed to some new information and MAYBE will even look into it further, those are the people we hope to "get through" to.
Our hobby is in serious trouble and not long for this world if we don't shape up quick. 99% of the public doesn't care if we can own reptiles, most think we shouldn't, and when you see set ups like the O.P's it's hard to disagree with them. As a community we have to progress, and fast or we are going to lose our rights.
Forget about the slow minds and just keep putting good info and support out there, as well as showing a better way and we MIGHT be able to retain our right to keep animals in captivity, but it's going to be tough, and judging by this type of thread, there is still so much work to do. This was the first thread I read on the enclosure board, couldn't even get past the first post without seeing horrible antiquated husbandry promoted in 2013...scary and sad. I'm a bit apprehensive to even view other posts in this section!
Best.
Ben

Wow you somehow turned basic husbandry discussion into the "we need to help stop our rights being taken away" BS. Get over yourself and stop acting like you are the savior of our hobby and everybody must listen to you or our hobby will die. gtfo

[smy_749]

Wow you somehow turned basic husbandry discussion into the "we need to help stop our rights being taken away" BS. Get over yourself and stop acting like you are the savior of our hobby and everybody must listen to you or our hobby will die. gtfo

I'm starting to realize, you very rarely, if ever, post anything useful on these forums. I guess thats what people who have no knowledge about the subject do, just criticize the other side because its easier?

[Amadeus]

I'm starting to realize, you very rarely, if ever, post anything useful on these forums. I guess thats what people who have no knowledge about the subject do, just criticize the other side because its easier?

Yep and you are the god-king of reptile knowledge and from now on I will deffer to you before I post anything which might misconstrue what you think.

[lady_bug87]

Alright boys time to roll'em up and get them back in your pants...

[franks]

Alright boys time to roll'em up and get them back in your pants...

Smy has got a point however- He does comment on many threads, rarely with the intent of helping the op, or responding to the issues relevant and being discussed. (my two cents at the risk of promoting another pissing contest)

I think one of the biggest road blocks to our hobby, one that may not be able to be overcome, is that our hobby in general is progressed by the breeders. Most breeders have a goal of productivity and profit, and are not overly concerned with creating the best possible environments for their animals.

[Amadeus]

Smy has got a point however- He does comment on many threads, rarely with the intent of helping the op, or responding to the issues relevant and being discussed. (my two cents at the risk of promoting another pissing contest)

I think one of the biggest road blocks to our hobby, one that may not be able to be overcome, is that our hobby in general is progressed by the breeders. Most breeders have a goal of productivity and profit, and are not overly concerned with creating the best possible environments for their animals.

Example? I'd really like to know.

[Mikoh4792]

Alright boys time to roll'em up and get them back in your pants...

I just let mine hang down low, get some air nom sayin?

[KORBIN5895]

I'm starting to realize, you very rarely, if ever, post anything useful on these forums. I guess thats what people who have no knowledge about the subject do, just criticize the other side because its easier?

Other than his signature I haven't seen him post anything about his actual collection or experience.

And no I won't join the pissing match because I don't want to trip anyone.

[B_Aller]

Example? I'd really like to know.
How about every response you gave on this thread.

[Mikoh4792]

How about every response you gave on this thread.

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg613/hairweavekilla1/wee-bey-gif.gif

[Amadeus]

How about every response you gave on this thread.

No, real examples please. Quotes, links. Not your half witted insults because you think you are the reptile master.

[Amadeus]

Other than his signature I haven't seen him post anything about his actual collection or experience.

And no I won't join the pissing match because I don't want to trip anyone.

You just did.

[Amadeus]

Other than his signature I haven't seen him post anything about his actual collection or experience.

And no I won't join the pissing match because I don't want to trip anyone.

I actually have posted numerous things and a few pics here and there of my collection, but I don't really need people to comment on and compliment my animals. Other people here post profiles and loads of picture of a simple bp or normal boa looking to gain posterity and fiending off of compliments and ****. I don't have anything to special with me, and if I did, I still don't think I'd be posting about my collection for the sole purpose to make others envious. I try to help others but I admit, I'm an ******* but an ******* with knowledge even if you people don't think so.


I think you even said something similar to this a couple weeks ago about how you don't need to post pictures and stuff of your snakes.

[MDT]

Alright boys time to roll'em up and get them back in your pants...

That made me laugh :)

And Ben, great input. Well reasoned points...I may not totally agree w you about racks (aesthetics vs functionality), but you are providing some good advice!

[red ink]

I actually have posted numerous things and a few pics here and there of my collection, but I don't really need people to comment on and compliment my animals. Other people here post profiles and loads of picture of a simple bp or normal boa looking to gain posterity and fiending off of compliments and ****. I don't have anything to special with me, and if I did, I still don't think I'd be posting about my collection for the sole purpose to make others envious. I try to help others but I admit, I'm an ******* but an ******* with knowledge even if you people don't think so.


I think you even said something similar to this a couple weeks ago about how you don't need to post pictures and stuff of your snakes.


I like to post my pics here for all the fans of Australian reptiles. I'm sure they appreciate it, they told me so...

I answer questions on here... rarely do I offer any help outside of the question.

[smy_749]

I like to post my pics here for all the fans of Australian reptiles. I'm sure they appreciate it, they told me so...

I answer questions on here... rarely do I offer any help outside of the question.

I appreciate you mang

[smy_749]

That made me laugh :)

And Ben, great input. Well reasoned points...I may not totally agree w you about racks (aesthetics vs functionality), but you are providing some good advice!

I agree and disagree with the rack thing. Can you have a perfectly healthy animal in a rack? Yes. Is it cheaper and more organized for people with lots of snakes / hatchlings...absolutely.

But Bens point was that it takes some of the fun away, turning reptiles into items in a desk drawer with no behavior. We definitely miss out on the observation department and fun of creating a cool enclosure.

[MDT]

But Bens point was that it takes some of the fun away, turning reptiles into items in a desk drawer with no behavior. We definitely miss out on the observation department and fun of creating a cool enclosure.

No argument here..

[poison123]

But Bens point was that it takes some of the fun away, turning reptiles into items in a desk drawer with no behavior. We definitely miss out on the observation department and fun of creating a cool enclosure.

Whos Ben? He sounds like a god lol.

[smy_749]

Whos Ben? He sounds like a god lol.

The baller above us. Don't be deceived, I don't think hes really a baller though.

[Amadeus]

I like to post my pics here for all the fans of Australian reptiles. I'm sure they appreciate it, they told me so...

I answer questions on here... rarely do I offer any help outside of the question.

Don't get me wrong, I love to see other people's great animals. I think I have commented on one of your threads.

[Amadeus]

Whos Ben? He sounds like a god lol.

No he's not a god. He thinks he is though.

[KORBIN5895]

I think you even said something similar to this a couple weeks ago about how you don't need to post pictures and stuff of your snakes.

I have no need to sit and tell everyone how great or knowledgeable I am. My posts speak for themselves. As I mentioned you haven't given any solid advice or shared any of your experience. So far you are just a common heckler that claims to have reptiles but hasn't even proven that yet.

[Amadeus]

I have no need to sit and tell everyone how great or knowledgeable I am. My posts speak for themselves. As I mentioned you haven't given any solid advice or shared any of your experience. So far you are just a common heckler that claims to have reptiles but hasn't even proven that yet.

That's what you think.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/boa-constrictor/100316-hogg-pictures.html
My hogg

This my ball python from at least 2 years ago.
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g361/412bro/Photo0249.jpg (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/412bro/media/Photo0249.jpg.html)

I don't have any pictures of my dum or garter.

I think you sir are the common heckler.

I guess you don't read enough threads because that is blatantly wrong.(underlined)

[poison123]

That's what you think.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/boa-constrictor/100316-hogg-pictures.html
My hogg

This my ball python from at least 2 years ago.
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g361/412bro/Photo0249.jpg (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/412bro/media/Photo0249.jpg.html)

I don't have any pictures of my dum or garter.

I think you sir are the common heckler.

I guess you don't read enough threads because that is blatantly wrong.(underlined)

Haha. I know who you are.

[poison123]

I don't have any pictures of my dum
sure you do...


http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-boa-forum/89034-new-dumerils-boa.html

[Amadeus]

Dee.......

[smy_749]

exposed lol hahahaha nice one daniel

[Amadeus]

Well I'm still not a heckler. Look you see them.

[infernalis]

How did I miss this??

I have checked the IP addy several times, but it's certainly the same photobucket account.

[poison123]

I'm a detective :p

[infernalis]

I'm a detective :p

http://www.freewebs.com/monkmania10/Evidence.jpg

[Lankyrob]

Thank god that ******* is gone :)

[franks]

You only get an assist on this one Korbin.

[smy_749]

Thank god that ******* is gone :)

+1 . Why was he banned the first time?

[Lankyrob]

+1 . Why was he banned the first time?

Not sure, when he joined as amadeus i pm'd wayne shortly after saying he would be trouble, my spidey senses were tingling!

[smy_749]

Not sure, when he joined as amadeus i pm'd wayne shortly after saying he would be trouble, my spidey senses were tingling!


He was ok in the very beginning, then he lost it and started instigating...oh well he won't be missed lol

[lady_bug87]

he wasnt missed the first time....

[Terranaut]

he wasnt missed the first time....

Who wasn't ? ;)

[lady_bug87]

Dan you're so witty...

[B_Aller]

Wow, a lot happened since I last checked this thread!
So I gather dude was a troll with previous offenses, common heckler, I like that one!
I hope I wasn't to blame for the thread going south. Also hope I'm not coming off as arrogant, certainly not my intent. I don't consider myself to be any thing special, I'm just interested and involved. I'm lucky enough to be able to spend all my time working with animal enclosures and animal exhibits and I do have a bunch of failures under my belt to have learned from. (some success too, but plenty of face plants)
This seems like a great forum and nice that people here are promoting civil conversations and allowing disagreements, removing this "common heckler" speaks highly of the place.
Oh and No, not a "baller" just a B.Aller :)

[Terranaut]

Dan you're so witty...

Bwahaha!! You have no idea ;)

[KORBIN5895]

Wow, a lot happened since I last checked this thread!
So I gather dude was a troll with previous offenses, common heckler, I like that one!
I hope I wasn't to blame for the thread going south. Also hope I'm not coming off as arrogant, certainly not my intent. I don't consider myself to be any thing special, I'm just interested and involved. I'm lucky enough to be able to spend all my time working with animal enclosures and animal exhibits and I do have a bunch of failures under my belt to have learned from. (some success too, but plenty of face plants)
This seems like a great forum and nice that people here are promoting civil conversations and allowing disagreements, removing this "common heckler" speaks highly of the place.
Oh and No, not a "baller" just a B.Aller :)

Arrogant? Nah.

It seems that you have the experience to back up what you are saying. More importantly you seem to be able to use logic and sound reasoning to figure things out. Anyone that is willing to question the status quo and try to make it better while using their brain passes in my book. Welcome aboard. I will be keeping you on your toes....

[Donnie]

I'm a detective :p

http://www.mrsec.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/most-impressive-darth-vader.jpg

:D:D:D

[marvelfreak]

Sweet i haven't like the sack of crap since they first join and started in on Lori. Luckily her night in shining armor was there to defend the fair maiden honor.

[lady_bug87]

Chuck I have no idea when that happened but as always you're my hero