View Full Version : North Western Hot snake vs Non-venomous snakes?
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 07:08 AM
So I heard something very interesting today. I heard that in N.W. U.S.A you can tell the difference between a hot snake and a non venomous snake by the eyes... it was online so I am just wondering if thats true or BS? The guy said that if a snake in the N.W has a slit in the eye, it's hot, and if not, it's non venomous. Is that true? I am pretty familiar with all 15 types of our native snakes here and Oregon and I think the Diamond back is our only hot snake. I am not going to look at an unknown snakes eyes and pick him up either way but that is still pretty interesting to me. The first pic is of the slit shaped pupal I mentioned which is supposed to indicate that the snake is hot (Diamondback to be specific). The second is the eye of a non venomous colubrid (Gopher snake).
Edit: I'd like to know whether thats completely false, true for some N.W snake, or true for all. So if I'm walking down a trail and I see a snake without those slits am I okay to be around it or could it be hot?
Lankyrob
07-09-13, 07:21 AM
Personally i would want to know before i got close enough to see its eye!
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 07:27 AM
Personally i would want to know before i got close enough to see its eye!
Me, too. I am getting into field herping and I'd only try and see a snakes eyes if I couldn't I.D them without it and if it works lol and I am not to big into hot snakes... that's kind of why I'd like to know if that's a reliable technique.
Sounds like you were watching the Texas Snake hunter. To my knowledge this is true, but like Rob said I would exercise caution. If this is the only method you have of identifying a hot snake, I would not employ it. Good luck herping.
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 07:50 AM
Sounds like you were watching the Texas Snake hunter. To my knowledge this is true, but like Rob said I would exercise caution. If this is the only method you have of identifying a hot snake, I would not employ it. Good luck herping.
I will only use that as a LAST RESORT. Again.. I think that diamondbacks are the only hot snakes we have but theres a problem with that... a lot of our non venomous snakes mimick rattle snakes. Corn snakes, Bull snakes, etc. I'd know the difference between the two as soon as I seen them but still... just in case we have any other hot snakes here that could come in handy some day. Sorry for any misspelling... I am speed typing on my phone lol
Pareeeee
07-09-13, 08:18 AM
There's not really any non-venomous snake that I can think of in north america that has the same body and head shape of a rattler. Milks and corns etc. may mimic rattlers, but lack keeled scales, short and stout body shape and triangular/arrow-shaped head.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 08:36 AM
There's not really any non-venomous snake that I can think of in north america that has the same body and head shape of a rattler. Milks and corns etc. may mimic rattlers, but lack keeled scales, short and stout body shape and triangular/arrow-shaped head.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
You're 100 percent right. However if I found a species I haven't seen/heard of, I wouldn't really have any way to I.D whether it's non venomous or hot. Most the snakes here hide in bushes and start rattling when you walk by. I think they are amused when they scare the crap out of people lol
warehouse13fan
07-09-13, 09:01 AM
I don't go by the eyes, I go by patterns,length, color, etc.
You should be able to go by pattern recognition and geographic range of the hots in your area. Now, if you want to get really up close, you could always check post cloacal scales to determine venomous vs non venomous (only works on viperid snakes, not elapids though)...
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 09:19 AM
You should be able to go by pattern recognition and geographic range of the hots in your area. Now, if you want to get really up close, you could always check post cloacal scales to determine venomous vs non venomous (only works on viperid snakes, not elapids though)...
Don't bull snakes have the same patterns as a DB, though? I know they are different colors than DiamondBacks.. but I thought their patters were the same.
you should google image both. you really shouldn't confuse the two. it would be possible to initially mistake the two, but upon second glance, you prob would see the difference.
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 09:27 AM
you should google image both. you really shouldn't confuse the two. it would be possible to initially mistake the two, but upon second glance, you prob would see the difference.
Well.. I mean.. one has rattles o e doesn't. That'd be enough for me to tell the difference. But I was just using bull snakes as an example of how I might confuse two snakes. The only pattern I can remember to stay away from is coral snakes. 'If black touches yellow, it'll kill a fellow'. LOL
Amadeus
07-09-13, 09:31 AM
Well.. I mean.. one has rattles o e doesn't. That'd be enough for me to tell the difference. But I was just using bull snakes as an example of how I might confuse two snakes. The only pattern I can remember to stay away from is coral snakes. 'If black touches yellow, it'll kill a fellow'. LOL
Some rattlers have very very tiny ratlerers.
Some rattlers have very very tiny ratlerers.
They are the ones with "rattle envy"....they are particularly grumpy...probably over compensating :)
Starbuck
07-09-13, 12:18 PM
there are also vipers in the US without rattles at all, such as copperheads (not necessarily in your area though), and they do have vertical pupils.
Watersnakes (nerodia) can do an excellent job of mimicking venomous species by flattening their heads etc.
Other non-venomous snakes such as corns and kings will rattle their tails to mimic venomous snakes...
And as mentioned, elapids have round pupils and can resemble non-venomous colubrids.
i think your best bet is to know the snakes in your area and be reasonably cautious. thankfully, you (and i) live in the US, not somewhere like australia ;)
Pareeeee
07-09-13, 04:33 PM
Oh and my comment on the eye thing: I believe slit pupils only mean that the animal is nocturnal, and round pupils mean diurnal. Look at boas and pythons, they both have vertical pupils like a rattlesnake does. Since most other snakes in your area are colubrids (which are, for the most part, diurnal) the eye thing may hold true, but I would NOT trust it as a sole means of identification. You would have to get uncomfortably close to a rattler to look at its eyes.
The same trait transfers over to mammals, cats (nocturnal) have slit pupils and dogs (diurnal) have round pupils.
Mark Taylor
07-09-13, 04:40 PM
I never knew that learn something new every day:)
Aaron_S
07-09-13, 04:56 PM
You're 100 percent right. However if I found a species I haven't seen/heard of, I wouldn't really have any way to I.D whether it's non venomous or hot...
I think you're missing the simple solution to this problem.
Take a picture from a distance. Go home and zoom in on the eye.
No point in taking unnecessary risks because you want to get close. Lots of snakes out there. Just walk away.
Tons of field manuals (Roger Conant's Guide to Eastern species is still the bomb) available to aid the untrained eye.
Read it....Learn it....Live it.....
:)
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 05:24 PM
there are also vipers in the US without rattles at all, such as copperheads (not necessarily in your area though), and they do have vertical pupils.
Watersnakes (nerodia) can do an excellent job of mimicking venomous species by flattening their heads etc.
Other non-venomous snakes such as corns and kings will rattle their tails to mimic venomous snakes...
And as mentioned, elapids have round pupils and can resemble non-venomous colubrids.
i think your best bet is to know the snakes in your area and be reasonably cautious. thankfully, you (and i) live in the US, not somewhere like australia ;)
And thankfully I live in Oregon specificly. We don't have anything too crazy here :)
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 05:27 PM
I think you're missing the simple solution to this problem.
Take a picture from a distance. Go home and zoom in on the eye.
No point in taking unnecessary risks because you want to get close. Lots of snakes out there. Just walk away.
I'm not going to kiss a snake to see it's eyes... I am not fond of hot snakes so if there was something I found that I couldn't I.D I wouldn't get close to it.
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 05:35 PM
ODFW Wildlife Species - Reptiles (http://www.dfw.state.or.us/species/reptiles/)
Here's a list of reptiles native to Oregon.
SSSSnakes
07-09-13, 07:24 PM
The OP says in his post that the Diamondback is the only venomous snake in Oregon. Oregon only has two venomous snakes and they are the Northern Pacific Rattlesnake and the Great Basin Rattlesnake. Also it was mentioned that you can ID a Rattlesnake by it's rattle, this is not true. A baby Rattlesnake has only a button, that does not rattle, and a adult Rattlesnake can break off it's rattle and be left with a rattleless tail.
ErikBush97
07-09-13, 07:44 PM
The OP says in his post that the Diamondback is the only venomous snake in Oregon. Oregon only has two venomous snakes and they are the Northern Pacific Rattlesnake and the Great Basin Rattlesnake. Also it was mentioned that you can ID a Rattlesnake by it's rattle, this is not true. A baby Rattlesnake has only a button, that does not rattle, and a adult Rattlesnake can break off it's rattle and be left with a rattleless tail.
Rattle snakes have their own look, though. And their own behavior. They act like they know that they are dangerous. Anyways, I know what rattle snakes look like and they are only in southern Oregon I think. I'm up by Portland.
Pareeeee
07-09-13, 09:08 PM
Rattle snakes have their own look, though. And their own behavior. They act like they know that they are dangerous. Anyways, I know what rattle snakes look like and they are only in southern Oregon I think. I'm up by Portland.
Only rattler I've ever encountered here in the wild (Massassauga Rattler) didn't act dangerous at all. Just sat there. The whole time. Did nothing.
...a bunch of oriental tourists came along and were holding their KIDS over it, they didn't speak English and it took me a couple minutes to convey to them that it was a dangerous snake...then they freaked out. Luckily for them it just sat there sunning itself without a care in the world...
PS: Animals are known to be encountered outside their apparent range. I suggest studying up on both snakes.
Crashcrashboom
07-09-13, 10:59 PM
Well.. I mean.. one has rattles o e doesn't. That'd be enough for me to tell the difference. But I was just using bull snakes as an example of how I might confuse two snakes. The only pattern I can remember to stay away from is coral snakes. 'If black touches yellow, it'll kill a fellow'. LOL
"Red on yellow, kill a fellow; Red on black, friend of Jack"
Don't want you to have a nasty mixup. Black on yellow would be a kingsnake.
Amadeus
07-09-13, 11:05 PM
Only rattler I've ever encountered here in the wild (Massassauga Rattler) didn't act dangerous at all. Just sat there. The whole time. Did nothing.
...a bunch of oriental tourists came along and were holding their KIDS over it, they didn't speak English and it took me a couple minutes to convey to them that it was a dangerous snake...then they freaked out. Luckily for them it just sat there sunning itself without a care in the world...
PS: Animals are known to be encountered outside their apparent range. I suggest studying up on both snakes.
Rattlers are fairly calm while cooled down but they become very pissy and active when warmed. A few years ago I was screwing with a timber I found upstate by my mom's house (I had some but limited venomous handling knowledge.) and I was trying to take pictures on a nice warm rock and the little thing got pretty pissed off..... Narrowly avoided a bite to the face...
I sure learned a valuable lesson.
ErikBush97
07-10-13, 12:14 AM
Only rattler I've ever encountered here in the wild (Massassauga Rattler) didn't act dangerous at all. Just sat there. The whole time. Did nothing.
...a bunch of oriental tourists came along and were holding their KIDS over it, they didn't speak English and it took me a couple minutes to convey to them that it was a dangerous snake...then they freaked out. Luckily for them it just sat there sunning itself without a care in the world...
PS: Animals are known to be encountered outside their apparent range. I suggest studying up on both snakes.
Saying that act like they are dangerous was wrong. I am bad at wording things at times. I haven't seen any wild rattle snakes but there's a reptile store in Portland that has a few rattle snakes and they are always ready to strike. It seems like they are saying 'I am armed! Leave me alone!'. I only got to see one and it was through it's glass enclosure. Really cool snake, but again... I am not into hot snakes. Beautiful snakes either way though.
ErikBush97
07-10-13, 12:19 AM
"Red on yellow, kill a fellow; Red on black, friend of Jack"
Don't want you to have a nasty mixup. Black on yellow would be a kingsnake.
Thanks, man. Back to what I original ly said... I am no good with remembering patterns. We have don't have Coral Snakes here so that's good.
KORBIN5895
07-10-13, 12:30 AM
I'm not going to kiss a snake to see it's eyes... I am not fond of hot snakes so if there was something I found that I couldn't I.D I wouldn't get close to it.
If you're close enough to see an eye that is less than a quarter inch in diameter you are probably close enough to get bit. Learn the looks (common color, build and patterns) body and be confident before you head out.
ErikBush97
07-10-13, 12:40 AM
If you're close enough to see an eye that is less than a quarter inch in diameter you are probably close enough to get bit. Learn the looks (common color, build and patterns) body and be confident before you head out.
I will :) thanks for the reply, man.
Pareeeee
07-10-13, 06:14 AM
Rattlers are fairly calm while cooled down but they become very pissy and active when warmed. A few years ago I was screwing with a timber I found upstate by my mom's house (I had some but limited venomous handling knowledge.) and I was trying to take pictures on a nice warm rock and the little thing got pretty pissed off..... Narrowly avoided a bite to the face...
I sure learned a valuable lesson.
Maybe Massassaugas are calmer than Timbers? I don't know since I've only seen one in the wild. If I encounter one I'm definitely taking a photo, but my camera wil be on timer at the end of my tripod. No way any part of me will be touching the camera that close to a hot LOL. You're lucky!
rocknhorse76
07-10-13, 01:38 PM
I grew up in central WA State, and while the pupil thing is true (with the exception on elapids), you only need to concern yourself with recognizing a rattlesnake in the PNW.
StudentoReptile
07-12-13, 05:19 PM
What happens when one comes across an aberration like this? - http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/16/67/96/78/stripe15.jpg
Pattern and coloration is not always the most reliable method of ID. ;)
What happens when one comes across an aberration like this? - http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/16/67/96/78/stripe15.jpg
Pattern and coloration is not always the most reliable method of ID. ;)
Yes, but post-occular striping is still present, body structure is consistent with a viperid snake.......annnnnnnnndddddd........
it has a rattle :)
just messin' with you....pretty cool pic. And for the novice, it might pose a problem.
SSSSnakes
07-13-13, 05:14 AM
Yes, but post-occular striping is still present, body structure is consistent with a viperid snake.......annnnnnnnndddddd........
it has a rattle :)
just messin' with you....pretty cool pic. And for the novice, it might pose a problem.
Not all Rattlers have rattles. Some can have broken off rattles and babies only have a button.
StudentoReptile
07-13-13, 06:17 AM
A major aspect of our education stuff in my society is proper ID for snakes. We like to display a BCI, water snake, copperhead and a cottonmouth all side-by-side (in secure display cages) and don't label them. You'd be surprised how many mistake them.
Ex: how do you tell a copperhead from a cottonmouth?
Not all Rattlers have rattles. Some can have broken off rattles and babies only have a button.
Exactly. And we have pygmy rattlers here, very small and tiny buttons.
Not all Rattlers have rattles. Some can have broken off rattles and babies only have a button.
Yes, true, but the one in the pic did have a rattle...that was my only point... :)
I can't count how many colubrids that "rattled" their tails when I've captured in the field. If in leaves or grass, it sounds pretty convincing unless you can identify from other criteria.
I guess my whole contention in this thread is just learn what you have living in your area,make sure you can quickly and accurately identify a pit viper from Nerodia (example, but you get the point)...
ashleynicole
07-14-13, 04:50 PM
I know here in Florida, all of the venomous snakes are part of the pit viper family and thus have vertical pupils, with exception of the coral snake, which is part of the cobra family and has a round pupil. And in that case the colors are easy to distinguish "red on yellow kill a fellow, red on black friend of jack".
Amadeus
07-14-13, 04:53 PM
I know here in Florida, all of the venomous snakes are part of the pit viper family and thus have vertical pupils, with exception of the coral snake, which is part of the cobra family and has a round pupil. And in that case the colors are easy to distinguish "red on yellow kill a fellow, red on black friend of jack".
Actually it's part of the elapidae family. =]
ashleynicole
07-14-13, 05:19 PM
Actually it's part of the elapidae family. =]
"Cobra is any of various species of venomous snakes usually belonging to the family Elapidae"
"All elapids are characterized by hollow, fixed fangs through which they inject venom."
"Coral Snake, common name for certain small, brightly colored, venomous snakes of the family of snakes that also includes the cobra."
What I meant to say was, coral snakes are part of the same family of snakes as cobras, in that they have the fixed front fangs, while the pit vipers have the hinged fangs.
ZeldaTheRosy
07-14-13, 05:25 PM
I know here in Florida, all of the venomous snakes are part of the pit viper family and thus have vertical pupils, with exception of the coral snake, which is part of the cobra family and has a round pupil. And in that case the colors are easy to distinguish "red on yellow kill a fellow, red on black friend of jack".
I will have to bug my brother for a picture. We recently road collected a dusky pigmy rattler, the pupils were round. I identified the snake before exiting the vehicle, my brother runs up looking at the eyes and said they are round, I very firmly told him to back away it is venomous. He wasn't actually close to it at all, I just wanted him to listen.
We believe do to stress it's eyes widened giving a real rounded look, almost more of a diamondy shape. After seeing this, he and I both were somewhat shocked.
Know your local snakes is a big thing to me.
Also, same day we road collected a garter snake, he flattened out(triangular body) and puffed his jaws to make a beautiful viper like head; similar to then acting like they are shaking a rattle, they can immigrate other snakes..
:) I love road collecting! We find so many unusual(to me)color patterns in my area!
smy_749
07-14-13, 05:32 PM
"Cobra is any of various species of venomous snakes usually belonging to the family Elapidae"
"All elapids are characterized by hollow, fixed fangs through which they inject venom."
"Coral Snake, common name for certain small, brightly colored, venomous snakes of the family of snakes that also includes the cobra."
What I meant to say was, coral snakes are part of the same family of snakes as cobras, in that they have the fixed front fangs, while the pit vipers have the hinged fangs.
We know what you meant, and it wasn't 'wrong'. He's just being a smart *** lol
ashleynicole
07-14-13, 05:39 PM
I will have to bug my brother for a picture. We recently road collected a dusky pigmy rattler, the pupils were round. I identified the snake before exiting the vehicle, my brother runs up looking at the eyes and said they are round, I very firmly told him to back away it is venomous. He wasn't actually close to it at all, I just wanted him to listen.
We believe do to stress it's eyes widened giving a real rounded look, almost more of a diamondy shape. After seeing this, he and I both were somewhat shocked.
Know your local snakes is a big thing to me.
Also, same day we road collected a garter snake, he flattened out(triangular body) and puffed his jaws to make a beautiful viper like head; similar to then acting like they are shaking a rattle, they can immigrate other snakes..
:) I love road collecting! We find so many unusual(to me)color patterns in my area!
All of the pitvipers have vertical pupils. Are you sure you didn't mistake a juvenile black racer for a pigmy rattlesnake? I had someone come into the ER with a juvie black racer that they swore up and down was a pigmy rattle snake. They are mistaken a lot because of the pattern. A lot of people mistake hognoses for rattlers as well.
SSSSnakes
07-14-13, 06:42 PM
I think the real point here is, if you don't know enough about the snakes in your area to ID them on site, with out cute rhymes or looking at the eye shape. Then you should leave them alone. Many non venomous snakes do a good job at imitating venomous ones. Unless you are positive it's non venomous, do not touch it.
I think the real point here is, if you don't know enough about the snakes in your area to ID them on site, with out cute rhymes or looking at the eye shape. Then you should leave them alone. Many non venomous snakes do a good job at imitating venomous ones. Unless you are positive it's non venomous, do not touch it.
YES YES YES YES YES....Thank you!!!!!
ZeldaTheRosy
07-14-13, 10:46 PM
All of the pitvipers have vertical pupils. Are you sure you didn't mistake a juvenile black racer for a pigmy rattlesnake? I had someone come into the ER with a juvie black racer that they swore up and down was a pigmy rattle snake. They are mistaken a lot because of the pattern. A lot of people mistake hognoses for rattlers as well.
:) I appreciate the concern but I am absolutely positive. No doubt about it.
My brother is going to search his pics(i think he got acouple hundred to go through)and see if any of the pictures show up with the rounder eyes.
Again, he and I think it was a stress situation making for a wider pupil, before it was safely released the eyes were back to being simply vertical thin pupils.
SSSSS and MDT; totally agree! If you don't know your stuff you shouldn't be doing field work.
As for hands on, I only use the hands on method for Scarlett's and scarlet kings.... I just prefer not being nipped at all, so I usually don't do too much hands on with red/yellow rats or even garter snake(for example;but not limited to) really most of that is I have no reason to "grab" them. Usually I just gently maneuver them off the road with the hook in hopes they don't return and get squashed.
SSSSnakes
07-16-13, 04:59 AM
As I went through some of my pictures, I found a few pictures of my Pygmy Rattlesnake and my Water Moccasin which by the angle and the lighting has caused them to appear to have round pupils.
ZeldaTheRosy
07-16-13, 03:30 PM
As I went through some of my pictures, I found a few pictures of my Pygmy Rattlesnake and my Water Moccasin which by the angle and the lighting has caused them to appear to have round pupils.
I wonder if like you mentioned it IS just lighting an angle, or if they were actually dilated. In the case I'm speaking of I truly believe it couldn't have been angle/lighting. Cool that others have experienced it. :)
We looked through the pics, none show the eyes well enough to tell either way... Next encounter I'll be paying more attention.
ErikBush97
07-16-13, 08:02 PM
As I went through some of my pictures, I found a few pictures of my Pygmy Rattlesnake and my Water Moccasin which by the angle and the lighting has caused them to appear to have round pupils.
http://bugsinthenews.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Western-Pygmy-Rattlesnake-Sistrurus-miliarius-streckeri-head-Matthijs-Hollanders-SHNF-Texas-061610.jpg
Luckily we don't have Pygmy's or Cottonmouths here.
ashleynicole
07-16-13, 10:04 PM
http://bugsinthenews.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Western-Pygmy-Rattlesnake-Sistrurus-miliarius-streckeri-head-Matthijs-Hollanders-SHNF-Texas-061610.jpg
Luckily we don't have Pygmy's or Cottonmouths here.
very pretty picture! I can still tell the pupils are not an actual circle though, they are elliptical in the picture just dilated.
I know it is not the best way to ID a venomous snake, but here In Florida this is one of the ways the physicians are trained to recognize the venomous snakes and to educate the public because 9 times out of 10 the average person will chop the head off a simple rat snake or racer that bit the while gardening :no: and then bring it in to the ER to see if they need anti venom.
This really saddens me because we went to this reptile discovery center/serpentarium in Deland, Fl where they actually do live venom extractions (totally amazing to watch btw, it was freaken awesome). the guy has been on a lot of shows on the discovery channel and things and They are really into educating the public to please NOT kill snakes, just leave the alone or call someone who can safely remove them. They even offer their number because they have shortages on some of the venomous snakes, mostly the coral snakes because everyone kills the as soon as they see them, even though they are a very non aggressive snake. The water moccasins they breed in captivity and they use them to make Crofab which is the antivenom used to treat any of the pitviper bites here in Florida. But the coral snake venom is needed to continue to research a new cancer fighting drug and they are severely short on a supply of the snakes. Other venoms are used to research medications for heart disease and cancer as well, but apparently this one from the coral snake is extremely promising. As a Registered Nurse myself this really hit home and I try to tell as many people as I can that they can even call my husband because he is working on getting his venomous handling license. He carries a snake hook and tongs and pillow cases in his patrol car at all times just in case :)
And the snakes in captivity are very well cared for. The ones bred in captivity of course thrive but some species like the corals are very fragile so they can only do extractions every 14 days and thats when they feed them and they absolutely do not disturb them the rest of the time. I believe the daimondbacks are a little fragile as well in captivity, some do better than others though because they are quit reclusive and do not like to be bothered.
RandyRhoads
07-16-13, 11:07 PM
As I went through some of my pictures, I found a few pictures of my Pygmy Rattlesnake and my Water Moccasin which by the angle and the lighting has caused them to appear to have round pupils.
Beat me to it.....
If he was hiding under a log in the dark, or poor light conditions a pit vipers pupils can be elliptical.
Every time I turn on the light at night to peek at mine, they look funny with big round eyes. Like they took some MDMA or something..:bouncy:
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