Please Help - Cat Bullying

[moshirimon]

Hey guys ive been dealing with a real problem recently and i don't know what to do. I have 2 cats, Puma and Porscha. Puma is a 4 year old domestic long hair. Got him from a shelter when he was 5 months old, he was skin and bones lol. Anyway he has always been a BIG cat, not only is he chubby but he is large in general. He is very sweet, shy, and doesn't exactly have the most confidence. He minds himself, never scratches, never makes noise, never goes where he's not supposed. it's like he's human, and he listens to the words you tell him.

When Puma was about too I introduced Porscha, a tiny 7 week old traditional balinese girl. She was the cutest thing i had ever seen. From day 1, porscha was extremely intellegent. she'd find her way around anything and anywhere. she found out how to pull open some door, open cabinets, where her food was, ways to hide out by the front door and dash outside whenever she can, and kinda started to take over.

As she grew she became more and more intellegent, i had never seen a cat like this (looked up the breed they are said to be one of the smartest). Whenry you don't give her attention she dollows you and latches onto your leg. She would wake me up every morning.

Over time she has become the dominant one. Not letting puma eat, chasing him around when he doesnt want to be chased, attacking him in his sleep and even kicking him out of the litterbox. We have since gotten seperate litterboxes and we feed puma seperately while she is locked in the washroom. Its VERY sad to see and everytime we notice we stop it, but its getting to the point where he almost seems depressed. He sits by the same window everyday, doesnt make a peep, gets up to eat and poop and plops back down. He will however come to you if encouraged and made feel welcome. He has many small puncture wounds you can see and feed from porschas teeth and claws. I wake up in the morning to find pumas fur everywhere. This is sad and not fair to him, and I need to do something about it. I will be taking him to the vet next week for his injuries and getting some help from them.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj6/KINGbiggypac/IMG_0898.jpg (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/KINGbiggypac/media/IMG_0898.jpg.html)
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj6/KINGbiggypac/humungo_zps903e3532.jpg (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/KINGbiggypac/media/humungo_zps903e3532.jpg.html)

[bcr229]

Can you confine them to different parts of the house (e.g. basement versus first floor) or to different rooms at night and when you're not home to supervise them? Obviously each area would need its own water bowl, litter box, and bed.

[Mark Taylor]

How long has it been going on? How old are they now? I take they have both been neutered.

[smy_749]

If they haven't been spayed/neutered I can prob guarantee thats the cause. Anyways, some cats are just a-holes. You could probably train him, they have a show on animal planet of some cat whisperer who 'fixes' demon cats. Or you could just spray him with a water bottle when hes being a **** or rehome him to a close friend ;P

Those are my solutions lol

[Terranaut]

Put the tough guy in your snake tank :)
Er. I mean you probably will have to give one away to stop this.
Are they both "fixed"?

[moshirimon]

Tough gal* lol. Yes they are both fixed. they used to be the best of friends, she would follow him around, immitate what he does. and now she bullies him. Spraying with water does NOTHING to her but terrifies him. I am telling you guys she is super smart and fearless. she feels she has to be ontop. if i brush him and give him attention she will wait until i'm done then pounce on him and attack him. he does nothing but run away. Puma the male is 4 and Porscha the female (bully) is 2.

Giving them away is out of the question for now. there must be other ways. These cats are like my siblings lol

[formica]

Some cats don't get along and there is nothing that can be done about it, if it continues, one of them will move out by their own choice, most likely the submissive one - I know it's a hard thing to consider, but it may be better to find a loving home for one of them before he deciedes it's time to go out on his own and find somewhere himself. Family member maybe?

Once a pattern of dominance has set in, it is very unlikely that it can be broken, there are various products which claim to soothe tensions between cats, but they are more marketing and sales pitch than science, a cat shrink might be able to give you some things to try, but ultimately you need to think about the welfare of the cats, domestic cats can have a hard time on their own, but they will leave if they don't feel at home any more

i've had 8 cats thru my life, seen all sorts of personalities in them, and had to make a similar decision years ago - the submissive cat ran away many times, and the dominate took to peeing all over the house, when she realized that bullying wasnt doing the trick - as soon as they where split up (one went to live with another family), both settled down and became happy cats :)

[Mark Taylor]

I had one that was a bit like that with my other cat (They were about the same age and both males.) So I went out and bought another cat around the same age another male and introduced it to the friendly cat first. After a couple of days in the same room I let them both out and they followed each other all over the house but as soon as the bully came to see the new smell and seen there was 2 he buggered off. I swear it wasn't 1 week before they were all curled up in front of the radiator. They to lived long and happy.

Cats are very clever but something needs to put her right, I would get another cat female around the same age and introduce it to the male.

[formica]

...or it could make the situation worse...

[MoreliAddict]

Sounds like the female is getting violent on the other cat while you are asleep.. you need to take IMMEDIATE action and separate them while you are asleep or not around.. in my opinion you should lock the female one in a crate every night.. but either way you NEED to separate them ASAP..

Felt horrible reading this story realizing that you find fur in the morning from them fighting but haven't even separated them yet...:no:

[moshirimon]

First off let me tell you guys Puma has A LOT of loose fur. He has layers on layers lol and i am almost 100% sure his fur isnot being "pulled out". He has clumps of fur you can pull out from shedding especially right now as it's the beginning of summer. I never hear vocalizations as aggressive cats usually do. I have seen it too, it almost looks like the girl is wanting to play and he doesnt and is annoyed. and she plays rought even with us humans. She plays fetch like a dog and when you tell her it's enough and walk away she chases your leg and pounces on it, rolling around then running away expecting you to chase her. But all this is very rough, she leaves me with cuts and scratches all the time.

My look on it is SHE wants to play when SHE wants and when he doesn't she forces it on him. She kicked him out of the litterbox when SHE has to go, not to deprive him of it. She tries taking his food because she is CONSTANTLY ready for food, (i said earlier that she opens the cabinets to get to it). I see it as her wanting things when and where and she makes it happen when she wants. She still follows him around, sneaks up beside him while he's asleep and sleeps next to him even in the same position at times. she copies alot of his actions.

Like i said i don't see it as aggression but just her bullying him into doing what she wants, and her just being ontop. It isn't a big deal but when its been going on constantly recently he just seems sick and tired of it.

I will go to the vet but getting rid of one is my very LAST choice, and i will not consider until i see any real hatred between the two. Hissing, "roaring", ears back, face swiping, etc.

[formica]

If the fights are not noisy, then it could be a sign of rough play - I've had older kittens who play very rough, and pull fur out of each other, with little noise, unless it gets too rough, then one of them gets a scratched nose and a loud hiss. But its obvious they are playing, because they also groom one another, sleep together and greet each other (touching noses) without getting upset


re you getting scratched - best way to deal with, is to hiss and walk away, avoid eye contact and ignore her for a while, if she carries on, stamp your foot and hiss, then ignore her again, not making eye contact is important, this is how her mother would have taught her to keep her claws in, it works well, but its not instant, most kittens learn within a few weeks tho - shes only 2, basicaly shes doing what all Teen cats do, same as human teens lol

[moshirimon]

I like that answer alot better lol. I actually do similar things when they get up on the counter and it usually works. just never thought about doing it all the time. I will continue using this as an effective way. I will keep you guys updated.

But what would i do about the scratches and cuts on his back? they arent small but there is quite alot and they have scabbed up so i can feel them thrrough his fur. I thought they could have been fleas or mites at first but i was able to look through to see some and they are little scabs from her claws and teeth.

[formica]

I like that answer alot better lol. I actually do similar things when they get up on the counter and it usually works. just never thought about doing it all the time. I will continue using this as an effective way. I will keep you guys updated.

But what would i do about the scratches and cuts on his back? they arent small but there is quite alot and they have scabbed up so i can feel them thrrough his fur. I thought they could have been fleas or mites at first but i was able to look through to see some and they are little scabs from her claws and teeth.

how many times has it happened? if its happened more than a few times, then he's not able to assert himself, they probably need splitting up at night, if its just a few times, then see how it goes, he should be able to set a limit on how much he will put up with, and if she really over steps the mark she'l get a scratched nose for her enthusiasm, assuming he can assert himself - some male cats are right whimps, esp up against a fiesty female, even works if i'm not in the room and I can hear him sneeking into the cupboards for corn flakes

does it only happen at night? you can intervene if it happens when you are around, stamp your feet or say Oi! loudly and stare right at her until she looks away, she should get the message, if she carries on being too rough then put her in for eg the bathroom for 10minutes to cool off. another random tip, is dont ever use her name if you are telling her off, it can confuse cats because we often use their names for praise/food etc, pick another single word and stick to, i like Oi coz its fast and simple, gets the message across, my Jacks learnt it means Behave without me having to stamp or take a time out any more...even works from a diffrent room, if i hear him sneeking into a cupboard for cornflakes or harrassing the other cats

dont stare at her if shes scratched you tho - thats an invitation for her to fly at your your neck claws streched wide lol

[Mark Taylor]

First off let me tell you guys Puma has A LOT of loose fur. He has layers on layers lol and i am almost 100% sure his fur isnot being "pulled out". He has clumps of fur you can pull out from shedding especially right now as it's the beginning of summer. I never hear vocalizations as aggressive cats usually do. I have seen it too, it almost looks like the girl is wanting to play and he doesnt and is annoyed. and she plays rought even with us humans. She plays fetch like a dog and when you tell her it's enough and walk away she chases your leg and pounces on it, rolling around then running away expecting you to chase her. But all this is very rough, she leaves me with cuts and scratches all the time.

My look on it is SHE wants to play when SHE wants and when he doesn't she forces it on him. She kicked him out of the litterbox when SHE has to go, not to deprive him of it. She tries taking his food because she is CONSTANTLY ready for food, (i said earlier that she opens the cabinets to get to it). I see it as her wanting things when and where and she makes it happen when she wants. She still follows him around, sneaks up beside him while he's asleep and sleeps next to him even in the same position at times. she copies alot of his actions.

Like i said i don't see it as aggression but just her bullying him into doing what she wants, and her just being ontop. It isn't a big deal but when its been going on constantly recently he just seems sick and tired of it.

I will go to the vet but getting rid of one is my very LAST choice, and i will not consider until i see any real hatred between the two. Hissing, "roaring", ears back, face swiping, etc.

This is exactly the same as the one I had to deal with, But the advice given is already good.

I just did it a different way it served the same purpose the new cat also wanted to play (In the end, after they got familiar with each other). So the naughty one (Playful one) Seemed to play with the new one I have seen it loads of times in the past. Just hard for me tell without seeing the behaviour.

If it continues could you post a vid?

[moshirimon]

it has happened many times. random at times. sometimes it'll go on for a few days sometimes it wont happen for a month. I don't think they intentionally do it at night though happens at random times even infront of me. I will break it up and she will cool off for a little while until i leave her and walk away. I look over and shes ontop of him again. He can handle himself physically, he dwarfs her. He just isn't the most confident.

I will definitely consider using a new "punishment" word. Everything you said makes total sense to me. Today everything has been good, I will definitely take proper action when something comes up and let you know.

Thank you so much formica

[Lankyrob]

Personally i like wild feisty cats :)

I know the laws over there are different but can you let her outside to get rid of some of the energy? Our two cats are siblings and started off really friendly and now cant be in the same room. If we stop them having the outside to play in then they will hunt each other with spitting hissing screaming attacks all over the house. At night they still will sleep on our bed but not together, they are able to get out of our bedroom window 24/7

[Lankyrob]

I also use "OI!!" when i decide things have gotten too far

[Mark Taylor]

I was unaware they they were house cats I let mine out 24/7 as well, can't imagine a cat without being able to rome around in the bushes and grass etc.

Still I think they will be fine and another cat is not completely ridiculous;)

[moshirimon]

Mark, I will definitely post a vid on the progress and of any fights that break out.

[Mark Taylor]

I hope you don't have too.:)

[moshirimon]

Lol not in a position for another cat. And i kept them indoors until this year. I leave the door open and even take them out sometimes but they have never decided to leave the front porch. Puma the less confident one will lay outside for a bit but after about 10 minutes comes running to the door crying.

[Mark Taylor]

In that case give him all the attention when the bully starts on him carry him away and give him a treat (If another cat is out of the Q lol).

[moshirimon]

In that case give him all the attention when the bully starts on him carry him away and give him a treat (If another cat is out of the Q lol).

i do this. he isn't all for being picked up lol. he follows though but he rarely ever takes treats from my hand. I have to almost trick him to take it. He's just different than most cats. they both are, and in a completely opposite way. The one thing he accepts all the time is, affection, petting, rubbing, and brushing. He likes sitting in the same room with you. never on you or close to you or touching for long, just being with you.

[Mark Taylor]

I relate to that have you tried skippers out of the tin lol.

If he won't take treats how about try with the bully see if she is interested in cat nip to waste some energy? Just a thought, I would do anything to try and make my cats happy even over the snakes sorry to say.

[Terranaut]

Declaw the bully ???? Might seem cruel but so is the situation. Just a thought if all else fails.

[bcr229]

If your younger cat is high-energy and smart, she might just be bored and need more stimulation. Since she plays rough, have you tried wearing her out using methods that don't leave you scratched up? For instance, will she chase a laser?

[formica]

Declaw the bully ???? Might seem cruel but so is the situation. Just a thought if all else fails.

this should not even be allowed to happen, it should be illegal. i find it appalling that any vet could do this to a cat - how the hell does this stuff get licensed!!

[Terranaut]

this should not even be allowed to happen, it should be illegal. i find it appalling that any vet could do this to a cat - how the hell does this stuff get licensed!!

I had 2 cats as a kid that were both declawed by their previous owner. You would never have known. Better a declawed cat than a euthanized cat IMHO.

[Akuma223]

Declawing shouldn't be allowed for domestic cats unless their feet are messed up. My friends cat needs to be declawed because he was born quite deformed and his claws are in all the wrong places, and stick out at random angles. Its not right otherwise.

[Amadeus]

Declawing shouldn't be allowed for domestic cats unless their feet are messed up. My friends cat needs to be declawed because he was born quite deformed and his claws are in all the wrong places, and stick out at random angles. Its not right otherwise.

Why is it not right?

[formica]

sure their feet will heal up, but why put them thru the torment in the first place? can you imagine how long your feet would hurt if someone cut your toes off?

Doing it for medical reasons where the cats life is in danger is the lesser of two evils - doing it because two cats dont get along - or worse, because a cat scratches the furniture (yep people actually do that!!!!!) - its just wrong. You dont need to put a cat down because it has social or behavioural problems.

argh this topic annoys the hell out of me, aswell as making me a bit sad that people can do this sort of thing. a bit sick too

[Amadeus]

sure their feet will heal up, but why put them thru the torment in the first place? can you imagine how long your feet would hurt if someone cut your toes off?

Doing it for medical reasons where the cats life is in danger is the lesser of two evils - doing it because two cats dont get along - or worse, because a cat scratches the furniture (yep people actually do that!!!!!) - its just wrong. You dont need to put a cat down because it has social or behavioural problems.

argh this topic annoys the hell out of me, aswell as making me a bit sad that people can do this sort of thing. a bit sick too

Does the procedure have the equivalent amount of pain that a human would experience when getting it's nails ripped off?

[Mark Taylor]

sure their feet will heal up, but why put them thru the torment in the first place? can you imagine how long your feet would hurt if someone cut your toes off?

Doing it for medical reasons where the cats life is in danger is the lesser of two evils - doing it because two cats dont get along - or worse, because a cat scratches the furniture (yep people actually do that!!!!!) - its just wrong. You dont need to put a cat down because it has social or behavioural problems.

argh this topic annoys the hell out of me, aswell as making me a bit sad that people can do this sort of thing. a bit sick too

I agree.:sad:

But they are just there opinions I am sure moshirimon won't resort to it.;)

[smy_749]

Its not the same as taking off a humans nails. Cats claws are how they keep themselves from falling, how they defend themselves if they ever get outside...they can't even play properly without their nails. Its more like having your thumbs ripped out then your finger nails considering they don't have 'fingers' and the fingers on the paws are basically useless .

[Mikoh4792]

Its not the same as taking off a humans nails. Cats claws are how they keep themselves from falling, how they defend themselves if they ever get outside...they can't even play properly without their nails. Its more like having your thumbs ripped out then your finger nails considering they don't have 'fingers' and the fingers on the paws are basically useless .

It's like taking the cat out of the cat

[Amadeus]

Its not the same as taking off a humans nails. Cats claws are how they keep themselves from falling, how they defend themselves if they ever get outside...they can't even play properly without their nails. Its more like having your thumbs ripped out then your finger nails considering they don't have 'fingers' and the fingers on the paws are basically useless .

I see. I was assuming it wash just like us having long hair or long fingernails.

[Mark Taylor]

Its not the same as taking off a humans nails. Cats claws are how they keep themselves from falling, how they defend themselves if they ever get outside...they can't even play properly without their nails. Its more like having your thumbs ripped out then your finger nails considering they don't have 'fingers' and the fingers on the paws are basically useless .

Not to mention they stretch the toe's I often see my cats caressing a wooden fence really digging her nails in and pulling away I think they do it stretch the there joints, just like we do when we stretch, they are extreme
free runners like jags and leopards:)

[Terranaut]

Hey I wasn't suggesting to run out and do this but if all else fails this would equalize the cats. I also did not let my cats out other than in my yard so defence was never needed. Again I would never do this unless very nessesary.

[Nataku]

People seem to be forgetting that cats can be trained.
Get an e-collar and train the aggressive cat that this behavior is unacceptable.
Don't know how to train a cat? Look up your local cat trainer, I'm betting unless you live in po-dunk middle of nowhere-ville there will be one. They can work with your cat to do this. Some use e-collars, some don't.
Although honestly, its very similar to how one trains a dog with an e-collar. The tap is to get their attention. As soon as they stop doing whatever behavior they were doing, you reward. Just generally food-reward based as opposed to affection-reward based because cats don't always want the attention for the reward, or their definition of 'affection' is too rough, hence the reason for training to begin with. Shape the behavior as you desire from there.

[formica]

there is not need to electrocute cats either! OMG.

these are not only horrible ways to train a cat, they show a complete lack of understanding for how a cat think and interact with one another.

negative reinforcement has been proven time and time again to be ineffective in the long term - worse still it produces negative/ damanging results in behavior modification

[moshirimon]

Thank you for all your replies. Some i agree with some i don't. I will not declaw, I will not shock, and i will not rehome. Things have been looking better. I've been kind of acting like a cat lol doing things they do, rarely even using words. Rather i have been stomping my feet and hands, hissing, using eye contact, and adding my own little touch of charging/bluffing. So far so good. Woke up this morning to find Puma actually ontop of Porscha this time. They looked like they were playing so i let it go on and they let eachother go with no hard feelings, and ended up laying next to eachother right after. I have came to the conclusion that I need to be the dominent cat in the family.

[Mark Taylor]

That's great news mate.:)

[LadyWraith]

My personal opinion... perhaps they are simply bored. A bored cat is a mischevious cat. Do you have multiple perches around the house where they can climb and/or look outside? When I have multiple cats, I find it best to give lots of perceived territory for each cat. Since they're not really social by nature, they need "me time". Also, more playtime with toys on your part can help. Wearing them out with constructive play time makes them too tired for fighting and quenches their natural prey drive, which is likely why the bully cat is picking on the other. Like I said, solely my opinion. :-)

[formica]

I've been kind of acting like a cat lol

thats the trick to interacting with cats :D glad to hear things are looking more positive!

They looked like they were playing so i let it go on and they let eachother go with no hard feelings, and ended up laying next to eachother right after. I have came to the conclusion that I need to be the dominent cat in the family.

thats a very good sign :) and yep, you are their surrogate mother cat and the boss

always worth keeping a box of cat treats around for when they are being calm and affectionate towards one another, they'll soon figure out the best way to get treats :D

[Nataku]

there is not need to electrocute cats either! OMG.


Try on an electronic collar. Its not electrocuting them. Its not a shock. Frankly I'd be fine with them if they were just because I dislike cats that much, but e-collars just aren't that kind of device. Sadly.

They are an effective training tool. People who detract from them simply need to educate themselves more on the matter. They aren't cruel, they aren't abusive - leaving one cat to steadily torment another cat and cause it to wither away from stress and a host of injuries which will likely eventually become infected on the other hand...

[formica]

Try on an electronic collar. Its not electrocuting them. Its not a shock. Frankly I'd be fine with them if they were just because I dislike cats that much, but e-collars just aren't that kind of device. Sadly.

They are an effective training tool. People who detract from them simply need to educate themselves more on the matter. They aren't cruel, they aren't abusive - leaving one cat to steadily torment another cat and cause it to wither away from stress and a host of injuries which will likely eventually become infected on the other hand...

its exactly because you dont like cats that you consider them to be ok. a shock is electrocution, inflicting pain is an archaic form of training which does more damage to an animal than positive reinforcement - its the very reason that some dogs can switch from being sweet and kind to ripping a childs face off without provocation. basic psychology, this kind of training has been understood to be damanging for at least the last 20 years

[sweatshirt]

I saw this one book called "Cat Vs. Cat: Keeping Peace When You Have More Than One Cat", that explains about cat behavior in pairs/groups.. you should check it out.

[Abraxxos]

World's Smartest Cat Performs Amazing Tricks! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P_XgJpUTis) Cats CAN be trained....

[smy_749]

Im training my kittens as we speak and its working surprisingly well. They chew my wires and my library which is currently just stacks of books on the floor since I havent bought any bookcases. Anyways Idk if it was mentioned , keep a spray bottle handy and spraying when they misbehave is working well for me. Just dont overdue it and spray for everything

[Nataku]

its exactly because you dont like cats that you consider them to be ok. a shock is electrocution, inflicting pain is an archaic form of training which does more damage to an animal than positive reinforcement - its the very reason that some dogs can switch from being sweet and kind to ripping a childs face off without provocation. basic psychology, this kind of training has been understood to be damanging for at least the last 20 years
Incorrect. But thank you for assuming.
I have used e-collars for training dogs to great effect, and have seen their results when used in training cats. That is why I consider them okay. I have also put them on myself before ever putting them on any animal to ensure that the stimulation it provides is acceptable. It is not a shock. On the low levels I can't even feel it. At the highest settings it causes a muscle twitch. At no point on me did it cause any 'shock' or actual feeling of any kind of 'pain' whatsoever.

[formica]

not incorrect at all, my opinion is based on decades of training cats without ever having to resort to negative reinforcement. You may well have used negative reinforcement to train animals, and of course it works, but that does not take away from the fact it has been proven to be damaging, and is no longer an accepted method of training animals amongst proffesional trainers.

[Lankyrob]

We were brought up with negative reinforcement training for our animals, it was how my dad was taught to do it in the 1950's. Our dogs were always obedient but slightly cowed, our cats never responded to name or commands.

When i moved into my own place and got my own animals i read around and tried positvie reinforcement, my animals were trained in a quarter of the time and respond to more commands. My cats will come when i call their name, will "talk" for a treat and are extremely friendly and cuddly.

[Abraxxos]

its exactly because you dont like cats that you consider them to be ok. a shock is electrocution

This is an incorrect and prejudice statement. I love dogs. I consider e collars to be more than okay. You do not have to despise an animal to think something is okay. Who said these were shock collars? Nataku said electronic collar. You took this and assumed she meant a shock collar. I play piano. Electronic keyboard do not shock me. Electronic does not mean electrocuting. A lot of e collars vibrate or make a sound.

not incorrect at all, my opinion is based on...

There. Opinion. An opinion itself cannot be correct or incorrect as it is an opinion - conjecture. My opinion is that e collars are fine. That is not an incorrect opinion. It is simply an opinion you don't happen to like.

E collars aren't negative reinforcement guys. E collars aren't painful. It's just annoying. A dog can be trained with huge success in 2 weeks with an e collar. Well enough that the dog can walk and keep heel off leash without darting.

Everybody is so anti-negativity and I can understand that but all things in the world and life itself require a balance of negative and positive, dark and light, yin and yang. Without shadow there is no light and without negative reinforcement there is no positive reinforcement. They never understand the difference between good and bad and I have seen way too many times training dogs myself (I train service dogs. I'm not just a person talking. I do have legitimate experience) constant positive reinforcement and only constant positive reinforcement will negatively affect your training. It is life there is always a negative even if you cannot yet see it. Disagree with me if you will but some of the most successful dog trainers use e collars. Try one on yourself. They do not hurt.

[formica]

no, it is not conjecture, it is backed up with scientific research. the same scientific research says that you are wrong, you can be of the opinion that the scientific research is wrong, but then theres no point even having this discussion.

[Amadeus]

its exactly because you dont like cats that you consider them to be ok. a shock is electrocution, inflicting pain is an archaic form of training which does more damage to an animal than positive reinforcement - its the very reason that some dogs can switch from being sweet and kind to ripping a childs face off without provocation. basic psychology, this kind of training has been understood to be damanging for at least the last 20 years

noooopppee electrocution means death by electric shock.

Electrocution - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/electrocution)

[formica]

noooopppee electrocution means death by electric shock.

Electrocution - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/electrocution)

you do not have to die to be electrocuted, you simply have to pass an electric current thru the body - that dictionary is wrong, try the oxford dictionary.

[Amadeus]

you do not have to die to be electrocuted, you simply have to pass an electric current thru the body - that dictionary is wrong, try the oxford dictionary.

HAHAHAHAH he says the dictionary is wrong.....

Sounds like all of your arguments just lost a lot of validity.

[formica]

HAHAHAHAH he says the dictionary is wrong.....

Sounds like all of your arguments just lost a lot of validity.

look it up in the Oxford Dictionary mate, the official refrence for the english language ;) i already have, but i'll give you the pleasure of doing it for yourself

[Amadeus]

look it up in the Oxford Dictionary mate, the official refrence for the english language ;) i already have, but i'll give you the pleasure of doing it for yourself

Wow you are still wrong.
electrocute: definition of electrocute in Oxford dictionary - American English (US) (http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/electrocute?q=electrocution#electrocute__10)

[formica]

did you miss the word 'injure' when you read the description? and injury doesnt have to mean 3rd degree burns.

[Amadeus]

did you miss the word 'injure' when you read the description? and injury doesnt have to mean 3rd degree burns.

NOPE but is a shock collar injuring or annoying?. Could you explain how the Oxford dictionary is correct but the Merriam Webster dictionary is wrong? Or is that just how you dismiss peoples truths by finding a dictionary that has a definition more to your liking?

[formica]

NOPE but is a shock collar injuring or annoying?. Could you explain how the Oxford dictionary is correct but the Merriam Webster dictionary is wrong? Or is that just how you dismiss peoples truths by finding a dictionary that has a definition more to your liking?

why do i need to explain how passing an electric current thru body tissue causes injury? seems to be fairly obvious, regardless of how small the current is.

Why dismiss your dictionary reference? because it misses out an important part of the description. and infact electrocution has nothing to do with execution, electrocution simply happens to be one method used in the barbaric practice of execution - i find it disturbing that execution is included, let alone used as the initial description of the word!

The Oxford Dictionary, is, the English language - i dont need any more reason than that to use it over any other dictionary

[Amadeus]

why do i need to explain how passing an electric current thru body tissue causes injury? seems to be fairly obvious, regardless of how small the current is.

Why dismiss your dictionary reference? because it misses out an important part of the description. and infact electrocution has nothing to do with execution, electrocution simply happens to be one method used in the barbaric practice of execution.

The Oxford Dictionary, is, the English language - i dont need any more reason than that to use it over any other dictionary

By your logic every time i would move any muscle in my body I'm doing harm. Do you happen to know that our body produces and has close to 10 watts flowing through it? How is the Oxford dictionary the English language? That's all you can say now that your arguments flaws have been addressed.

[formica]

By your logic every time i would move any muscle in my body I'm doing harm. Do you happen to know that our body produces and has close to 10 watts flowing through it? How is the Oxford dictionary the English language? That's all you can say now that your arguments flaws have been addressed.

none of this has anything to do with my argument against negative reinforcement, the science speaks for itself - you are more interested in arguing semantics than address that particular issue ;) and yes, I studied Human Biology.

[Abraxxos]

No the science does not. Guys. IT doesn't matter what the definition of electrocution is.. because these are not shock collars. FFS Formica, SERIOUSLY, read what I am saying. Not all e-collars are electrocuting or shock collars. He has a point formica, why won't you stop and think about it if you actually studied human biology (then again for all we know you could just be referring to the high school biology class we all took. Either way, the collar isn't dangerous or harmful or electrocution or shock. Listen. You have no arguement because your arguing something completely different. It does have to do with your talk of negative reinforcement because what we are doing isn't negative reinforcement. It's PROPER TRAINING. You went through the same thing in grade school. Do good get rewarded do bad get sent to the principal's office. Stop acting like it's torture.

"The e-collar they are referring to is totally different. They create a stimulation that is the same as a tense unit at the Chiropractic office which are used on humans, they are used to create an ANNOYANCE where as a shock collar is used to train AVOIDANCE of a behavior, area, action or thing. There is a huge difference between an e-collar used for training and a shock collar; those who use shock collars for training are using them for different things. The use of positive reinforcement IS necessary in training; however, it has to be balanced with negative reinforcement to teach what not to do. Its like raising a child. You cant give a child a piece of candy for everything the child does correct and simply ignore the wrong behaviors. An e-collar is a very minor reminder to behave, like a tap on the shoulder vs a full on punch, as a shock collar would be. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN AN E-COLLAR AND A SHOCK COLLAR." -A Professional Dog Trainer whom has success in many rehabilitation cases between full blow aggression to complete fear of everything and even your every day companion dog as well as service dogs.

Considering none of you are professional dog trainers... I think right there is a settlement.

[formica]

an e-collar is what is used to stop animals scratching themselves after surgery, it has nothing to do with training, i assume you are not talking about that - in which case the only training collars that I have come across either use electricity to shock the animal or they spray something in its face, if you can point me to something else than by all means let me know...

as for your assertion that negative reinforcement is useful, yes you can train anything by using negative reinforcement, and by that I mean pain, specifically - but - research has proven, that both in animals and humans, it does damage. Yes it has been done for thousands of years, but that doesnt make it the best way to train something/someone, the science has been done and shown that pain is not only unecessary, but it is ultimatly counter productive in both humans and animals.

I do not believe that training collars are painless, whether they are supposed to just be annoying or not - too many people are prepared to use corporal punshiment on animals because of the old adage 'spare the rod spoil the child', which they also apply to animals, and which has been proven to be counter productive and damaging.

No trainer worth their salt will inflict pain on an animal, whether that is thru a collar or by hitting, in order to train an animal.

No I'm not a dog trainer, but i've trained many cats, early on I used negative reinforncement, and since stopping that and only using positive reinforcement, I have much happier cats, who are far more sociable and interactive, and we have a far more rewarding relationship than i had with previous cats who where trained 'old school' - and most importantly, the cats who have been trained with only positive reinforcement are FAR more well behaved.

[Abraxxos]

E-collar. Got it. You don't understand when things are shortened. Let's make it simple. Not Elizabethan Collar. Not the cone collars. E collar meaning electric. Not e meaning electrocute. Please. READ what we are saying. Electric does not mean electrocute. It does not mean shock. It does not mean pain. It means there is a battery inside of it and it uses electricity to do whatever it is it does. Again. Electric piano. Does this piano electrocute you? No but it is electric. Electric does not translate to electrocution or shock. PLEASE read. I have said this previously and you have continued to stubbornly act like we're talking about shock collars. We are not. Obviously if you think training collars are always painful you have not used enough of the or a wide enough variety. Go buy some. They don't all inflict pain. A training collar can train through the use of sound. Sound doesn't inflict pain. It's just annoying depending on the frequency. You use your voice (sound) to praise a dog. You also use your voice (sound) to verbally reprimand a dog. If all training collars are painful apparently talking to your dog is painful too. Do you see the stupid here? We never said this trainer was inflicting pain. You took a class on human biology and apparently like dictionaries but did you ever take a reading class?

"I agree, no trainer should inflict pain on an animal to train it. I am not saying that in the least. Look up a Dogtra 300 or a Mini-einstein, both of these are e-collars (electric collars) that are used in training. They have 100 levels so that you can find the lowest level that your dog registers to create an annoying sensation. These create an electric pulse that tenses the muscle slightly where the collar is making contact. Before ever using these I've not only used them on myself but also on my own, personal dogs. These collars do not harm the dog. In fact, when used properly they teach the dog to think for themselves and want to obey the command given. These collars use the same technology as a tense unit in the Chiropractic office, this same technology used in the collars are used by professionals to help people.

I have a dog whom was abused from a trainer who used methods that I do not agree with. He then shyed away from people for six months and took a year to be a happy-go-lucky pup again with people, especially men. I used a Dogtra to train him and he is one of the most confident, happy pups and is very bonded with me.

Strictly positive reinforcement training dog work in many cases, I am not disagreeing with you there; however it does, like every method, have its flaws. For example: if a distraction outweighs the reward you have to offer, a dog will go to the distraction thus breaking command and this can put the dog into harms way. Without reprimand , the dog has already gotten his reward for breaking the command by reaching the distraction and thus rewarded himself for an unwanted behavior. Without any sort of reprimand for the unwanted behavior the dog will continue the behavior. I am not saying "negative reinforcement" in the terms of "pain", I am saying it asin punishment. A sort of punishment.

A child that colors on the walls, if allowed to do so will continue the behavior because it is self rewarding. If given a piece of candy every time the child colors on paper, this may eventually correct the problem however if they prefer the wall art to the candy then this method has become obsolete. If you correct a child, regardless on with a smack on the hand, crayons taken away, time out or what have you every time the child colors on the wall and reward for every time the child colors on paper you will see swift, understood results where there is a very defined line drawn on what is and is not allowed.

Its structure. Dogs need it just as kids do. I am not saying to beat a dog or a child nor to cause either any harm. I am saying that both need consequences for improper actions, regardless on training or parenting style.

I will admit, I do not know anything about training cats; that being said, you do not know nor understand the proper training methods used for these particular training collars. In such, you cannot say whether they do or do not cause pain. As a person who has put it on myself before ever using it on a dog, I ca tell you for a fact that the "correction" is not painful." -Dog Trainer

[formica]

for your information, and e-collar is something completely different to a training collar

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e-collar#

just looked up Elizabethan collar, and you are still talking nonsense, its a medical device to protect an animal after surgery.

smacking a child is child abuse. end of.

[sweatshirt]

Erm... this is just my $0.02 but cats are completely different from dogs. I've always had both. You need to learn to understand cats, not try to train them. They don't come running back like dogs.

[formica]

Erm... this is just my $0.02 but cats are completely different from dogs. I've always had both. You need to learn to understand cats, not try to train them. They don't come running back like dogs.

my cats come when called, they even fetch toys on command :) but you are right, to get them trained in this way takes allot of care, and attention to the way cats communicate with each other

[Abraxxos]

"That is entirely your opinion and you are not acknowledging anything else given to you as examples. You are nit-picking to make your opinions clear instead of looking at what is offered to you as explanations and examples. I will accept this, and your opinion...however answer me this:

Using nothing but strictly positive reinforcement, how do you correct a dog bolting from you regularly? If a dog, seeing a person or another dog or squirrel or cat or what have you, does not wish to be beside you and will tug you down the road to get to said distraction and will not respond to the treat in your hand (whether it is a milk bone or a filet mignon), how do you handle this situation? Even after months of working in no distractions, and months working at a distance?

Or a dog without a food or toy drive? Or a dog that is terrified and shuts down and will refused treats?

And what do you do the day that you do not have treats on you?" -Dog trainer

Additionally I would like to point out that it has already been pointed out to you that we are NOT talking about Elizabethan collars. You are obviously not actually reading. You are completely 100% skipping over everything written and refusing to pay attention to what we are saying.

[sweatshirt]

I meant in the way like train them to leave the room when another cat comes in. My cats also come when called. :)

[formica]

"That is entirely your opinion and you are not acknowledging anything else given to you as examples. You are nit-picking to make your opinions clear instead of looking at what is offered to you as explanations and examples. I will accept this, and your opinion...however answer me this:

Using nothing but strictly positive reinforcement, how do you correct a dog bolting from you regularly? If a dog, seeing a person or another dog or squirrel or cat or what have you, does not wish to be beside you and will tug you down the road to get to said distraction and will not respond to the treat in your hand (whether it is a milk bone or a filet mignon), how do you handle this situation? Even after months of working in no distractions, and months working at a distance?

Or a dog without a food or toy drive? Or a dog that is terrified and shuts down and will refused treats?

And what do you do the day that you do not have treats on you?" -Dog trainer

Additionally I would like to point out that it has already been pointed out to you that we are NOT talking about Elizabethan collars. You are obviously not actually reading. You are completely 100% skipping over everything written and refusing to pay attention to what we are saying.

e-collar and Elizabethan collar are the same thing, did you not look at the google link I added? they are not electric collars, and if you want to show me a collar which does not involve sending a current thru the animals neck, as I asked, then please do.

yes of course I skipped over it, if you want to try and change facts around however you like and speak down to people, then dont expect them to bother reading the rest of your post.

[formica]

the whole point of training, is that you do not need the treats all the time, no professional dog trainer would ask such a stupid question.

[Abraxxos]

"I will admit, I do not know anything about training cats;..."-Dog Trainer

"I already stated that I do not train cats. I am just offering you to allow you to understand my training methods with dogs because you felt so inclined to shout that it was abuse, when it is not even remotely.

And you are contradicting yourself, repeatedly." -Dog Trainer

It is difficult to train a cat. I know. I've done it. However a cat, especially one being bullied can be trained to go to another room. You can't be lax on training though. You can't stop at oh he finally figured out the trick. You have to be consistent and monitor everything. I know. I had several cats growing up. I had a young male black cat named Howler who had been with us for a while before we brought home Daisy a 13 year old rescue. Daisy decided our household was a matriarchy and didn't like Howler whom had been the previous holder of dominance/power in the home. I trained him that my room was a place to go to when he was annoyed or Daisy got near him. Daisy was trained never to go into my room. Problem solved. Just because something is difficult does not mean that it is impossible.

[Terranaut]

I will not get into this one but just so we aren't all talking out our butts.....because this is way out of control. The training collar is nothing. I tried one at Rens much to the dismay of my wife ...it was painless even on the highest setting. You felt it but a 9volt battery on the tongue is about the same or just slightly less.
Smacking your child is not abuse. Hitting your child is. If you don't see a difference I am sorry but honestly some of the best lessons I ever had in life ended with a smack and I would not change the past if I could.
As far as positive renforcement...lets give rapists a hooker when they don't go out and rape a woman or maybe we can buy people oil changes for not speeding or maybe give people who pay their taxes a free movie night....give me a break. You must as both a parent and a trainer use both methods. One is useless without the other so this entire argument is like arguing you don't need peanut butter or chocolate in your Rese's cup.
End it and move on :(
http://www.britishdog.net/media/gbu0/cat/imagewrap.jpg

[Abraxxos]

"Thank you for being insulting whilst I am trying to converse with you, it is appreciated.
That does not at all answer the questions that had been offered to you as a person who is trying to allow your opinion and training methods to be thoroughly heard.

I was being genuine in wanting to know how you would handle that. Instead you which to attempt to insult the one person trying to actually hear you out.

Have a lovely day, if you care to answer the questions offered so that I may learn what it is you would do in those circumstances, please make it known to my friend, Abraxxos.

I am leaving you with your rude bias now." -Dog Trainer

Wow she was actually trying to help you. Good job Formica. Good job. The point is to show each other. To teach and to learn. She wasn't insulting you. She was trying to teach you. To show you something you obviously know nothing about. We were talking to you about the differences and the methods. You however only made effort to tell us solely that we are wrong and trying to emit that holier than thou you are wrong in more ways than you know vibe and completely ignore everything. We aren't trying to change facts. AGAIN. We are not talking about shock collars. You are talking about shock collars. We are not. Why are you so thick skulled you can't understand this? We are trying to educate you. You won't read it because you know you are wrong. End of story. Sorry there's no other way to put it. That's the only logical reason one would not read something when supposedly they're trying to learn and understand. We read everything you said however you, for whatever reason cannot extend this same courtesy. Well done in remaining ignorant.

[Abraxxos]

"PS- Thank you Terranaut" -Dog Trainer

[Abraxxos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VMXf7NRa2o If nothing else watch this video. Words can only say so much. The only proof needed is the type not that you read but you see for yourself.

[formica]

are you posting messages from someone else in your posts?

you cannot expect someone to listen to you by being patronizing, which is what you where doing, and you got exactly the same rude reaction back. not going to go over any more of this, you have your opinion on the subject, i have mine.





Terranaut - I would draw your attention to Norway, they operate a very diffrent judicial system to the UK, Canada and US, here in the UK we have a reoffending rate of 75% within 18months, both the US and Canada have reoffending rates of 70%.

in Norway, they have <30% reoffending rate, they operate a completly diffrent system, they rehabilitate rather than punish, and with crimes like Rape, then psychiatry/psychology is used - the numbers speak for themselves really, we can punish for short term release of (justifiable) anger, but it doesnt serve society, the victims or the perpetrator in any real positive sense. couldnt find the original research on it, but heres a newspaper artical which covers most of it: The Norwegian prison where inmates are treated like people | Society | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people)

Negative reinforcement is a short term solution which aggrevates problems in the long term

[smy_749]

I didn't read the whole thread, and thats a pretty cool system in norway, but are you guys now comparing humans to cats and dogs?

[formica]

I didn't read the whole thread, and thats a pretty cool system in norway, but are you guys now comparing humans to cats and dogs?

isnt it fascinating, and very unique, i hope it catches on around the world, imagine what their society will be like in 20, 50, 100 years time if they keep on the same path! exciting prospect imo :)

there is separate research into animals which shows very similar principals when training animals and teaching humans, obviously with more complex communication there are significant differences, but the aspects of positive and negative reinforcement are surprisingly similar. but the human bit is just the usual internet tangent within a tangent lol

[Abraxxos]

are you posting messages from someone else in your posts?

you cannot expect someone to listen to you by being patronizing, which is what you where doing, and you got exactly the same rude reaction back. not going to go over any more of this, you have your opinion on the subject, i have mine.

Negative reinforcement is a short term solution which aggrevates problems in the long term

You're seriously just now figuring this out? Seriously? You claim to know the english language yet you missed the quotation marks? And the fact I was posting that YES it was said by a different person? Yes. Any thing at all from those messages in quotations are from a friend of mine who was sitting right here next to me. She is a professional dog trainer. She went to a very well known dog training school for this job. She does it for a living. Maybe if you had actually read what was being posted instead of ignoring every last thing you wouldn't be so ignorant to the situation.

You've obviously never used or experienced e-collars or dogs whom have been properly trained with e-collars making everything you have said extremely prejudiced and nothing but opinion and thus invalid in this conversation. Again one of the most popular and effective systems here and it uses e-collars (again which isn't negative reinforcement because it isn't painful because it isn't shocking... but you're too ignorant to read and learn this ~shrugs~). Full complete off leash training filled with any and every distraction and basic training for dogs with (including but not limited to) anxiety, aggression etc. and the training sticks even after the collar has been removed. If you'd watch the video provided, you'd know this and understand this but again... You are being ignorant continuing to invalid what you say.

[formica]

blah blah blah blah

that fact that you consistently have to resort to rudeness invalidates your posts, which I really couldn't be bothered to read after the first few.

[Abraxxos]

It's hard to respond any other way to idiocy. When you are so ignorant you absolutely refuse to listen and insult us what do you honestly expect? Calling you ignorant isn't being mean, it's being truthful. Sorry but not sorry. If you don't like the truth maybe you should change.

Anyways OP: E-collars aren't shock collars and are painless. You can easily find a very successful program/guide to help you. Best of luck.

[Amadeus]

It's hard to respond any other way to idiocy. When you are so ignorant you absolutely refuse to listen and insult us what do you honestly expect? Calling you ignorant isn't being mean, it's being truthful. Sorry but not sorry. If you don't like the truth maybe you should change.

Anyways OP: E-collars aren't shock collars and are painless. You can easily find a very successful program/guide to help you. Best of luck.

I like you.

[formica]

It's hard to respond any other way to idiocy. When you are so ignorant you absolutely refuse to listen and insult us what do you honestly expect? Calling you ignorant isn't being mean, it's being truthful. Sorry but not sorry. If you don't like the truth maybe you should change.

Anyways OP: E-collars aren't shock collars and are painless. You can easily find a very successful program/guide to help you. Best of luck.

how am i ignorant? I am succesfully using positive reinforcement, and several other people have piped up on this thread saying they also use it successfully - and we have all pointed out the diffrence between animals that have had each technique used, ie the outcomes are far better, we are not relying on second hand information, and worse still a sales pitch from a company trying to sell a piece of crap to you

funny how you refuse to show me these non painful electric shock collars eh ;) if they didnt shock they would be utterly pointless, because they would do nothing more than a trainer can do using their mouth, or a whistle, or their fingers to click - but if you want to spend your hard earned cash on a piece of crap to do it for you. go for it - but dont bring your attitude to me about it - I do not believe they are not painful for a cat, and I have no intention of trying one, if it wasnt painful it would be a complete waste of money anyway, negative reinforcement or not!

this is the last I have to say on the matter, its been tedious.

[Abraxxos]

how am i ignorant? I am succesfully using positive reinforcement, and several other people have piped up on this thread saying they also use it successfully - and we have all pointed out the diffrence between animals that have had each technique used, ie the outcomes are far better, we are not relying on second hand information, and worse still a sales pitch from a company trying to sell a piece of crap to you

funny how you refuse to show me these non painful electric shock collars eh ;) if they didnt shock they would be utterly pointless, because they would do nothing more than a trainer can do using their mouth, or a whistle, or their fingers to click - but if you want to spend your hard earned cash on a piece of crap to do it for you. go for it - but dont bring your attitude to me about it - I do not believe they are not painful for a cat, and I have no intention of trying one, if it wasnt painful it would be a complete waste of money anyway, negative reinforcement or not!

this is the last I have to say on the matter, its been tedious.

Be gone, annoyance. We don't want you to continue speaking. Why should I show you anything you want me to show you when you can't answer a simple question. If your precious continuous singular positive reinforcement is so amazing and great... answer the running question. But you won't. Because you can't. Because there is no way to train a dog to not run with positive reinforcement alone.

That wasn't a sales pitch but my friend. I don't have a dog she is trying to train and isn't part of the over all company. So maybe before you assume crap, like you have this ENTIRE THREAD, you should really think about what you're saying because assumptions make a bigger *** out of you than it does out of me. It isn't second hand advice. It was direct. It was her typing on my computer, direct quotes, you bigot.

How are you being ignorant? Because we were explaining to you exactly how it works. Exactly how it isn't painful. Explaining to you that e-collar doesn't mean elizabethan or electric but you are so filly with stupidity and stuck in your ways that you can't take five minutes to stop and read something that is unbiased and LEARN. THAT is why you are ignorant. The second somebody spoke about e-collars, you flipped out and insulted them. You immediately assumed they were talking about a shock collar. Immediately assumed that Nataku had to hate cats in order to think it was okay. I love cats. I think it's okay. Because it is. I love dogs. I think it's okay. Because it is. YOU cannot tell me differently because YOU have no bloody clue what the hell you are talking about.

And THEN when Amadeus stopped to point out that an electrical current isn't dangerous because HELLO your entire body runs off of electricity, you completely refused to listen. Grab a mini einstein collar, put it on your palm and feel it. Then and only then when you post a video of it, will I consider what you say to matter at all. Because if you want to talk about second hand information, honey, you're using it. Because you have no experience. So if you think it's hurting them, where are you getting your information. OBVIOUSLY not from your own dealings. So put up or shut up and stop being a hypocrite.

[Abraxxos]

I like you.

I like you too especially because you schooled her in her own language. ;)

[formica]

blah blah blah

you resort to name calling, are you 10 years old? its pathetic.

I dont need to waste my money on pointless training collars, I have a mouth to issue commands with, and its worked perfectly for over 20 years, I dont need to learn anything from someone like you - so, whatever!

[Abraxxos]

you resort to name calling, are you 10 years old? its pathetic.

I dont need to waste my money on pointless training collars, I have a mouth to issue commands with, and its worked perfectly for over 20 years, I dont need to learn anything from someone like you - so, whatever!

And you resort to completely ignoring the valid points and refusing to learn. It's hugely pathetic. And ignorant. And idiotic.

You call it name calling. I call it pointing out the obvious truth.

I can bet it isn't as good as our collars. :)

I'm just using big words you don't like. Get over yourself. If I wanted to honestly call you names without something backing it up I could. Take the truth and accept it. Thought you were done posting here Formica. What's a matter, training not working well enough so you felt you needed to come back here and defend it?

[formica]

And you resort to completely ignoring the valid points and refusing to learn. It's hugely pathetic. And ignorant. And idiotic.

You call it name calling. I call it pointing out the obvious truth.

I can bet it isn't as good as our collars. :)

I'm just using big words you don't like. Get over yourself. If I wanted to honestly call you names without something backing it up I could. Take the truth and accept it. Thought you were done posting here Formica. What's a matter, training not working well enough so you felt you needed to come back here and defend it?

whats the matter, did my pointing out how damaging negative reinforcement is to animals hit a nerve? feeling guilty perhaps?

and still with the name calling lol grow up.

[Amadeus]

whats the matter, did my pointing out how damaging negative reinforcement is to animals hit a nerve? feeling guilty perhaps?

and still with the name calling lol grow up.

Now who's being a ten year old?

[Abraxxos]

whats the matter, did my pointing out how damaging negative reinforcement is to animals hit a nerve? feeling guilty perhaps?

and still with the name calling lol grow up.

You are quite possibly the densest person I know if you thought that post was name calling. And no, I don't feel guilty. Because it isn't hurting them. I know because I have felt the collars. I know because I put the collar on myself before I would ever put it on my animals. But you wouldn't know this because you're too ignorant to realize. Please, remove yourself permanently and take your very stupid ignorant useless conjecture elsewhere. Still can't answer any of the questions.

[formica]

Now who's being a ten year old?

you are right; in defense I give what I get, its a trait i've never been able to shake, when confronted with someone who thinks that aggression is normal part of intelligent conversation.

You are quite possibly the densest person I know if you thought that post was name calling. And no, I don't feel guilty. Because it isn't hurting them. I know because I have felt the collars. I know because I put the collar on myself before I would ever put it on my animals. But you wouldn't know this because you're too ignorant to realize. Please, remove yourself permanently and take your very stupid ignorant useless conjecture elsewhere. Still can't answer any of the questions.

I'm not going anywhere, so you'll just have to deal with it, if you cant handle a different opinion to your own without being rude, you'll just have to remove yourself

[Abraxxos]

I'm not going anywhere, so you'll just have to deal with it, if you cant handle a different opinion to your own without being rude, you'll just have to remove yourself

Says the person who has stated at least twice she was leaving the conversation... Why should we trust anything you say when you can't even follow through. Boy, how I was looking forward to that.

So, do you actually have anything to say about the OP or the tread, because now your ignorance has just turned to full blown off topic ranting. I will continue to stick to the practice of collar training. It has infallible results unlike voice commands alone which don't work on every animal.

[formica]

Says the person who has stated at least twice she was leaving the conversation... Why should we trust anything you say when you can't even follow through. Boy, how I was looking forward to that.

I'm sure you where, although you havent added anything valuable to this thread what so ever, my advice to the OP was taken, and used, and was found to be helpful.


and btw, I am not a 'she'.

[Abraxxos]

"OP: I need help. Opinions please!
Person1: Here's my answer!
Person2: Here's my answer!
Person1: I disagree with your answer. You're a horrible person.
Person2: Well that escalated quickly.
Person3: Do you have any experience with Person2's answer?
Person1: No.
Person3: Then shut up."

This thread in a nutshell.

I have actually. The OP asked for help. I answered. Whether or not you like it wasn't asked. Whether or not you think it's useful wasn't asked. Your opinion wasn't asked. Period.

[formica]

"OP: I need help. Opinions please!
Person1: Here's my answer!
Person2: Here's my answer!
Person1: I disagree with your answer. You're a horrible person.
Person2: Well that escalated quickly.
Person3: Do you have any experience with Person2's answer?
Person1: No.
Person3: Then shut up."

This thread in a nutshell.

I have actually. The OP asked for help. I answered. Whether or not you like it wasn't asked. Whether or not you think it's useful wasn't asked. Your opinion wasn't asked. Period.

pretty sure the title of this thread is 'please help' - and if someone is giving what I consider to be bad advice, then I will say so, deal with it.

[Abraxxos]

pretty sure the title of this thread is 'please help' - and if someone is giving what I consider to be bad advice, then I will say so, deal with it.

Except it isn't bad advice. You can't consider it to be bad because you don't actually know if it is or is not. You have never dealt with this and have no experience with this. You admitted to never having used them. Thus you have no experience thus you have no place to say whether or not it is or is not bad. However when 3 people post about having used them and having had positive results you can do nothing but continue to slam them with your blatant ignorance. Let's see. People with no experience versus people with experience. Guess who's post is valid. Let me give you a hint, it isn't the post belonging the the person who has no experience. If you've never ridden a bicycle you can't give advice on how to ride a bicycle. If you've never skydived you can't have a valid unbiased opinion on which parachuting systems are better BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW. Because you have never had experience with it. Because you know nothing about it. You can't tell a person whether vocal commands alone are better than e collars or not when you have no idea. The only experience you have is with vocal commands and sure, you know it has worked well so far but you have not a single living clue in the universe as to whether or not an ecollar could improve the training or not. So before you go around spreading hate and intolerance for something, experience it first. Everything to this point that you have said against ecollars is purely biased conjectural hear-say. No experience. No first hand knowledge. No understanding. You didn't even TRY to listen or understand.

[formica]

in your opinion it isnt bad advice, in my opinion it is bad advice.

I have used both negative and positive reinforcement, so dont tell me I dont know what i'm talking about. I did read what you wrote initally, and then you got all up your own arse about it, so I stopped bothering. just like i'm still doing ;)

[Abraxxos]

I'm going to tell you you don't know what you are talking about because you act like you know everything there is to know about negative reinforcement and e-collars. You have never used them and never will. So no, you have no idea what you are talking about. When you have educated yourself, then come back, because right now you know nothing and with everything you say you only prove further that you know nothing.

[Terranaut]

Longest thread hyjack I have seen in a while.
So can anyone actually help the OP now ?
Do you even remember the question?

[formica]

I'm going to tell you you don't know what you are talking about because you act like you know everything there is to know about negative reinforcement and e-collars. You have never used them and never will. So no, you have no idea what you are talking about. When you have educated yourself, then come back, because right now you know nothing and with everything you say you only prove further that you know nothing.

yawn


Longest thread hyjack I have seen in a while.
So can anyone actually help the OP now ?
Do you even remember the question?


pretty sure she's sorted it a few pages back :)

[Abraxxos]

Longest thread hyjack I have seen in a while.
So can anyone actually help the OP now ?
Do you even remember the question?

Yup. Started out asking about ways to end the violence between her cats.

My boyfriend had the input that he got his two males to stop fighting by spraying them with water whenever they did it. Senn his cats. Worked beautifully.

I'm of the opinion e-collars are good way to go but then Formica here decided to get offended and appalled by something he doesn't actually know about. I tried educating him. Didn't work. Won't listen.

[Terranaut]

Although I personaly would consider the e-collar maybe it's time to just agree to disagree ?

[Abraxxos]

Although I personally would consider the e-collar maybe it's time to just agree to disagree ?

Might as well. Gets annoying, though, when somebody thinks it's bad just because they disagree and wrongly assume.

[formica]

Yup. Started out asking about ways to end the violence between her cats.

My boyfriend had the input that he got his two males to stop fighting by spraying them with water whenever they did it. Senn his cats. Worked beautifully.

I'm of the opinion e-collars are good way to go but then Formica here decided to get offended and appalled by something he doesn't actually know about. I tried educating him. Didn't work. Too dense. Won't listen.

I know that they have been banned in several countries as inhumane, I know that science has proven negative reinforcement to be damaging to animals in the long run, I know that in the UK professional dog handlers consider them to be abuse and dangerous for the long term psychological welfare of the animal, I know that they can cause displaced aggression in some (eg random attacks on children), i know plenty more things about them, without having to abuse my cats with them to find out first hand.

[formica]

Although I personaly would consider the e-collar maybe it's time to just agree to disagree ?

I did suggest that several times - despite my strong feelings on the subject.

[Abraxxos]

I know that they have been banned in several countries as inhumane, I know that science has proven negative reinforcement to be damaging to animals in the long run, I know that in the UK professional dog handlers consider them to be abuse and dangerous for the long term psychological welfare of the animal, I know that they can cause displaced aggression in some (eg random attacks on children), i know plenty more things about them, without having to abuse my cats with them to find out first hand.

You still don't know the feeling of the collar. You still don't that it's actually negative. There are many different type of e collars. I'll say it again for the umpteenth time. E collar does not mean shock collar.

Obviously the handlers using them don't know how to use them. Go back and watch the video I posted. Tell me that's a dog that's being abused. Tell me that's a dog that is unhappy. Tell me that's a dog in fear of the collar. Tell me that's a dog that only works with the collar on and is being damaged. Any action done incorrectly will have negative lash back. Treat train your dog too much and they'll get obese. Verbal command your dog too much and they'll stop listening. Get a shock collar and zap your dog and yeah it's gunna get a little antsy. But, again, these aren't shock collars. We aren't electrocuting the animals.

Your country banning something doesn't mean or prove much at all. Russia just passed a law making it legal to jail anybody who supports gays. Doesn't make it right.

I am seriously not trying to fight with you. I'm trying my damndest to help you understand but you have got to work with me. If what is said falls on deaf ears no progress is made.

(Literally I know. Deaf dog in the house)

[formica]

You still don't know the feeling of the collar. You still don't that it's actually negative. There are many different type of e collars. I'll say it again for the umpteenth time. E collar does not mean shock collar.

Obviously the handlers using them don't know how to use them. Go back and watch the video I posted. Tell me that's a dog that's being abused. Tell me that's a dog that is unhappy. Tell me that's a dog in fear of the collar. Tell me that's a dog that only works with the collar on and is being damaged. Any action done incorrectly will have negative lash back. Treat train your dog too much and they'll get obese. Verbal command your dog too much and they'll stop listening. Get a shock collar and zap your dog and yeah it's gunna get a little antsy. But, again, these aren't shock collars. We aren't electrocuting the animals.

Your country banning something doesn't mean or prove much at all. Russia just passed a law making it legal to jail anybody who supports gays. Doesn't make it right.

so if you are not passing an electric current thru the animals neck, what are you doing? try and give me a straight answer...

and stop patronizing me, I am entitled to my opinion, and it does not need to be 'educated', espcially considering the vast body of evidence against these collars

[formica]

you can call a Spade whatever you like, but its still a spade.



Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs?* A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS (http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/are-electronic-shock-collars-painful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-Evidence-Paper.pdf

Shotgun Life - Expert Dog Trainer Robert Milner Says Heck No to Shock Collars (http://www.shotgunlife.com/wingshooting/wingshooting/expert-dog-trainer-robert-milner-says-heck-no-to-shock-collars.html)

Shock Collars - The Shocking Truth | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars)

http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232713013325&mode=prd

Latest report on Shock Collars (http://www.apdt.co.uk/news/latest-report-on-shock-collars-2013-06-21)

Defra, UK - Science Search (http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx?Menu=Menu&Module=More&Location=None&Completed=0&ProjectID=17568)

Defra, UK - Science Search (http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx?Menu=Menu&Module=More&Location=None&Completed=0&ProjectID=15332)

[Abraxxos]

so if you are not passing an electric current thru the animals neck, what are you doing? try and give me a straight answer...

and stop patronizing me, I am entitled to my opinion, and it does not need to be 'educated', espcially considering the vast body of evidence against these collars

Dude. For the last time.... An electrical current does not hurt. Your entire body runs off of electrical currents. If there were no electrical currents in your body you would be dead. There is a difference between an electrical current that is pos to neg and pos pos or neg neg. Pos to neg is not painful. I'm not saying you need to put the collar on your dog or cat. I'm saying YOU need to put the collar on yourself. It's like getting a tattoo or piercing. You can't tell somebody whether it hurts or not until you've had one. You assume it hurts because if it made sense, it would hurt. But assuming something doesn't make it an actual fact. Assumptions are guesses. These are not shock collars. Do you have any idea what so ever how electricity works? I'm really starting to doubt any actually general education if you can't understand that electricity is not always damaging/painful. You do need to be educated. You need to be educated because you continue to talk about something.

Would you be happy if I started giving advice to a frog keeper (I dont keep frogs. I don't know things about frogs. I have no experience with frogs.) acting like I have a ton of experience and know everything? No. You wouldn't. You'd be all 'man stfu you don't know what you're talking about that is horrible advice stop' Paraphrasing, obviously but... point made. You wouldn't be happy and any one here who keeps frog s would also be very against me speaking because i have no clue. I can't give advice on something when I have no clue. IF you're going to sit here and talk about these things like you know what you're talking about, learn about it. Experience it for yourself. Then pass judgement on if that's painful or not. It isn't painful. It's just surprising. I have been hit by a taser. I have played with actual shock collars. These are not shock collars.

[Abraxxos]

Do you know what a tense unit is? Completely serious question. Have you ever been to a chiropractor and had a tense unit used on you?

[formica]

read the articals, the first one clearly shows how the collars where used and how they affected the animals. you cant seriously be saying that groups like the RSPCA, DEFRA and the Kennel Club UK know less about this than you do. The evidence is all there, should you choose to investigate it for yourself, rather than sticking to a belief that is founded only in your own limited experience.

and FYI, the most powerful electrical currents in the human body, in the heart operate at less than 150mV at less than 10 nanoampres, that current is miniscule compared to a 9V battery which can deliver 0.5amps, delivered fast enough it can be more than that, that is thousands of times more current than a human nerve.

[Amadeus]

read the articals, the first one clearly shows how the collars where used and how they affected the animals. you cant seriously be saying that groups like the RSPCA, DEFRA and the Kennel Club UK know less about this than you do. The evidence is all there, should you choose to investigate it for yourself, rather than sticking to a belief that is founded only in your own limited experience.

and FYI, the most powerful electrical currents in the human body, in the heart operate at less than 150mV at less than 10 nanoampres, that current is miniscule compared to a 9V battery which can deliver 0.5amps, delivered fast enough it can be more than that, that is thousands of times more current than a human nerve.

Ok look up how much current goes from the brain through to the spinal cord.

[formica]

Ok look up how much current goes from the brain through to the spinal cord.

why dont post up the refrence to the number that you have? or have you not found one?

besides, nerve cells are insulated, it is not an uncontrolled current surging randomly thru the bodies tissues, as is the case with an electrical current passed thru the skin. Nerve pulses are very short, very low voltage and very low current, they are not constant.

[Amadeus]

why dont post up the refrence to the number that you have? or have you not found one?

besides, nerve cells are insulated, it is not an uncontrolled current surging randomly thru the bodies tissues, as is the case with an electrical current passed thru the skin. Nerve pulses are very short, very low voltage and very low current, they are not constant.

Forget the biological debate.

Are you still arguing about negative reinforcement or do you think it is inhumane to use shock/e-collars? Dude do you actually think these animals are fragile enough for a tiny amount of current to injure them or do you just think you are better than someone who uses these products. Have you ever been shocked by electricity? A 9 volt battery on your tongue tingles. A shock from 12 volts stings. A car battery will make whatever part you touched it with numb for a few hours.

How much current does an e-collar actually give to the animal? Seriously. I'd like to know.

[infernalis]

take it up on a cat or dog forum.....

this is a reptile forum...

Thanks.