Rescue

[Abraxxos]

TRIGGER WARNING

This is a thread about rescues. I've already made a thread about Sulu a ball python I rescued a while back in the general python forums. This will be the story of 4 boas whom I rescued all about the same time. 3 of them related.

I had been making plans to upgrade Sulu and Shelly, my milksnake, to larger enclosures. Craigslist is a great place to hunt for enclosures at great prices and within a few pages we found a group of 55 gallon aquariums - 3 for 100$. We had no use for the 3rd tank but we took it anyways. You never know.

So we go to this guys place to go pickup these aquariums and while we're talking about the aquariums he asks us what we're going to put in them and we mention we have snakes. He then asks what type of snakes and in my list I mentioned Radio, my year and a half old BCI. At this point he gets really excited and wants to show us his snakes (also BCIs)

He readily admits that he has fallen on hard times, and has not been taking care of the snakes like he used to. He had three snakes. One 8 1/2 ft male, one 6 1/2 ft female, and one (what I thought was) a neonate from the one litter he had had from the two larger snakes. All three are very underweight (pyramid-ing, wrinkled skin, dull colors). He says the neonate was actually born July 2012, making this snake nearly a year old. By comparison, a local pet store had a clutch of BCIs born almost a month ago - those babies are already the same length, and fatter. The 10-11 month old snake was just skin and bones, ribs were visible. The guy stated the last time the youngest snake was fed was two months ago... he thinks. I think it must have been longer ago than that, because I've seen snakes go more than two months without losing anywhere near that kind of weight. He was keeping their tanks on the front porch of his house - we live in Florida, I know our summers are nice and warm, but our winters, while mild are still much too cold for BCI's, and our humidity is not consistently where a BCI's should be. He clearly had the heat lamps and pads, but says he hasn't been using them to save money on his power bill.

So I pay him for the tanks and he goes ahead and gives me the baby since I already have a BCI.

We took her home and cleaned out her tank, gave her water and a hide as well as slapping a UTH on the bottom of it. Thawed out a pair of fuzzies and she practically inhaled them. Baby, as we have named her (We were trying to go for something else but we kept referring to her as baby and well.. the name stuck) has actually made a lot of progress and as far as having hugely horribly stunted growth she has put on weight. She's gone through 2 full healthy sheds and eaten several meals.

Here's a picture of Baby up against Radio, a snake with only a few months of age between them...
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03528_zps7d3f9870.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC03571.jpg

Luckily, I had some spare 6x3x3 enclosures from another great craigslist deal when I was buying an enclosure in preparation for my JCP. After getting the spares ready, I went back a week later for the parents.

Here is Monty
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03573_zpse2a66617.jpg
Here is his face...
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03587_zps9a842b23.jpg
Here is him gasping for air...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC03586.jpg

The man that we got Monty from was not Monty's first owner (or so he says) He claims that Monty had been kept previously in a wire cage, got facial injuries and developed mouth rot. He then supposedly saved the snake from this mouth rot. Really you never know what is an isn't a lie and considering the conditions the snake was in I'm not going to put a bunch of faith into what he says. So he has prominent facial disfigurment and scars. His nares are no longer intact and has to open his mouth to breath, everyonce in a while opening his mouth in a sort of yawn. He had an RI but it has since been cured. For quite a while he refused food but have gotten him to eat 2-3 nice meals now. He's an absolute sweetheart and is very insistent on being held. If the enclosure is opened if you don't move away in about a minute he'll be curling up on you.

Here is Justice
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC03589.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC03613.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC03618.jpg

She isn't in as bad of condition as Monty or as stunted as Baby but she is still skinny. She had an RI (now cured) when we brought her home and has some obvious past rub injuries on her nose but overall is probably the second best looking of the 3. Not only has she eaten she has proven to be quite a glutton and had a perfect shed and loves to soak (Monty however loathes soaks and will do anything within his power to escape the bath tub).

As I'm out of pictures I can put in this post, the next several posts will contain a better break down of the individual snakes and more pics of each.

[Mark Taylor]

Nice to see them getting better shame they even got in that state.

[Abraxxos]

Baby

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/cujotime2.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/cujotime3.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/cujotime.jpg
Time stamped pictures of Baby's birth. We really didn't believe him when he said the snake was a year old... but then he told us his facebook and we found these.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/babyxbaby.jpg
Remember I said one of our friends had just had babies a month prior to us finding this snake? On the left is the snake from my friends clutch. On the right is Baby. A snake who is a year older. :|

Pictures of Baby now. Taken today and the day before.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03727_zpsc8a2e111.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03777_zpsdaac035c.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03779_zpsad54e85b.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03960_zpsb50c0b5a.jpg

[Abraxxos]

Monty
These first few are of him enjoying some time stretching out in the grass. As you can see, he's going back into shed again. Bit of a surprise being as he just finished his last shed barely a week ago, but if he so feels the need.... we'll continue watching him closely.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03939_zps8e3fa9dd.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03938_zps820ebf99.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03946_zpsb74b411e.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03917_zps9417576a.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03899_zps060e4ec9.jpg
And these are from Monty's meal today.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03971_zpsa73a4bab.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03972_zps4f1d65d1.jpg

[Abraxxos]

Justice

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03855_zpse124c23c.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03847_zpsfa95308c.jpg
It's a twig, it's a stick, it's a snake!
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03836_zps90e0be0a.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03834_zps597f4c06.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03822_zps9a702283.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03775_zps4ccc11b8.jpg
Monty and Justice curled up together. They have their separate enclosures, but they throw fits when they aren't with each other. We noticed that when they were in separate enclosures they kept being restless and trying to get out of the cages and into the opposite cage. One day while cleaning Monty's cage he got out and went wrapping around Justice's enclosure trying to get to her. When allowed, they are inseparable.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03826_zps4d156f71.jpg
And this was a heron who did not approve of us having snakes out that were being than she was.

[Abraxxos]

Jewel

So now for Jewel's story. Only a few days after bringing Monty, Justice and Baby home, a friend of mine came to me with another BCI. The snake had been surrendered to her without much notice and she asked me to take the snake. As annoyed as I was about the situation, I took her because I knew that otherwise the snake might not be in the best of hands - my friend said she really just didn't have the room or the money for a big snake. Her previous owners were apparently fervent smokers of pot and had named the snake Cannabis (Not a name I will accept. She has a shape on her head resembling an indian bindi so.. Jewel it is). When we received her, we were told she didn't eat frequently and was often a picky eater. (From my experience, no, she really isn't). We also noted she had a rather nasty RI, complete with bubbles out of her mouth and nose (and cured it). Unfortunately, nobody we have spoken to has any clue about her most prevalent problem (which thankfully is backing off now that she is home with me):

Jewel has seizures. :(

We were not warned, but the night after bringing her home she had an incident and she wound up having 3 seizures that week. They have lessened in frequency significantly and a seizure has not been noted for at least 2 weeks now. The only thing we know to cause seizures is overdoing mite spray but... she hadn't been sprayed with mite spray and whatever the cause, it was something that had happened in her previous home (that of which we still really haven't figured out) however she does hugely freak out while being picked up. She's fine once you're holding her and she's secure, but in the time of being picked up she is hugely uncomfortable and we suspect she has likely been dropped. We usually just let her come out of her enclosure on her own now - she's nowhere near so jumpy when picked up outside of the enclosure. Not sure if anybody else here has had this problem, but considering there is no smoke here and there was an over-abundance of smoke in her old home and a lessening of seizures here but seizures there... Perhaps the seizures are smoke induced?

We also noted she has some facial scarring much like Monty... what we suspect was previous mouth rot.

Unfortunately we forgot to take her out today, so we didn't get any nice outside pictures today like the rest - we'd already fed her by the time we remembered, and we weren't about to take her out after she'd eaten. We don't have an exact measurement on her size, but she's between Justice and Monty's size, so we're figuring around 7 to 7 1/2 feet.

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03772_zps43aa948c.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03773_zps4919204e.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03774_zps867702da.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03780_zps3da0542a.jpg
Look, I'm doing my best monitor lizard impersonation! XD
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03757_zpsb19b7779.jpg
A cleared shot of her facial injuries. Y'know, without a rat in the way.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g416/ShaeKindlewood/DSC03785_zps5b86ab2d.jpg

[Terranaut]

You guys are doing fantastic with these. I love it when people do the rigjt thing. Please...now that you have come out and told us about these guys please update often. Keep the pics coming. Use the same background every week and take the same shot so we can see them improving. Those poor boas. Glad you guys have them now.

[Amadeus]

Kudos for helping these poor animals.

[Chu'Wuti]

I would be very concerned about these snakes having IBD--Inclusion Body Disease. Have you taken them to a vet? A blood test could rule out IBD (or confirm it).

Inclusion Body Disease (http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html)

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/vth/files/documents/Inclusion%20Body%20Disease%20in%20Boas%20and%20Pyt hons.pdf

I hope my suspicion is unfounded . . . :-(

[smy_749]

I didn't want to be a debby downer as I do appreciate what your doing, but I was going to say the same as Chu' when I saw the pic of 'Baby' on top of one of your pets. You may want to keep them separate for a while, unless its been a while and your just updating us now, in which case I apologize.

[Abraxxos]

I didn't want to be a debby downer as I do appreciate what your doing, but I was going to say the same as Chu' when I saw the pic of 'Baby' on top of one of your pets. You may want to keep them separate for a while, unless its been a while and your just updating us now, in which case I apologize.


You guys are doing fantastic with these. I love it when people do the rigjt thing. Please...now that you have come out and told us about these guys please update often. Keep the pics coming. Use the same background every week and take the same shot so we can see them improving. Those poor boas. Glad you guys have them now.

Yeah we're just now making a post about them. We've had them for a while but didn't want to post anything in fear that they were just going to die. So now that every one of them is making progress we decided to finally make a post.

[Chu'Wuti]

Have you taken them to a vet and had blood tests done for IBD?

[Amadeus]

Have you taken them to a vet and had blood tests done for IBD?

What makes you think they have IBD?

Have you taken yours for blood tests?

[Chu'Wuti]

Amadeus, the symptoms that have been reported for these snakes are commensurate with IBD. That's why I ask. I posted a couple of links to information about IBD earlier that you might read for more information.

None of mine--not those I've bought, nor those I've rescued--have ever displayed any of those symptoms, so I've never had them tested. If they were displaying symptoms like these, I would, especially if they were rescues, as I wouldn't want to risk my own snakes.

I also quarantine new snakes, whether rescues or not, for a minimum of three months, usually longer, and I would NEVER put a new, sick, and/or underweight snake with one of mine to take pictures, as I wouldn't want to risk my snakes getting something I don't yet know about. That's just common sense.

[Amadeus]

You have a subtle patronizing attitude.

Ik what ibd is and I have seen it first hand. She should look for stargazing and or writhing.

[Terranaut]

Can you please tell me which symptoms mentioned support possible IBD? I see no mention of stargazing or lack of motor skills. Siezures do not on their own indicate IBD. I am not saying it isn't possible , I just don't see much evidence in the descriptions of the snakes conditions??

[sweatshirt]

Poor little baby... my 2 month old is twice his size :(

Thank you for helping them.

[Pareeeee]

Great job rescuing those poor snakes. Hopefully they will all make a full recovery.

[smy_749]

I just want to clarify, I didn't mean that I think they have IBD (idk if posts were directed at me), just that they shouldn't be co-mingling just in case she just got them. Best of luck with them

[Terranaut]

I believe these snakes were all from the same keeper and in the same place anyway. BUT I wouldn't have them anywhere my collection for a few months.

[Abraxxos]

Guys, guys ^_^ I'm pretty sure they don't have IBD. They've been taken to the vets and blood was done on them and nobody said anything about IBD. They had been taken to the vet for their RIs and 2 did stargaze infrequently but it was for the RI. RI is gone now, symptoms are gone. No stargazing. Plus, from what it sounds like IBD is fast, if they did have IBD, my other snakes, specifically Radio, would show symptoms by now, which he doesn't. We had blood tests done and unless theres some new thing where the vet neglects to tell you about this terrible disease killing and infecting your animals... I'm relatively positive. Jewel was not from the same keeper but we consider her part of the group since she's the same species and we got her at the same time as the others. Justice, Monty and Baby all came from the same person.

Poor little baby... my 2 month old is twice his size :(

I KNOW. Our disbelief was unmeasurable. It's horrid. I cannot stand how tiny she is. We were so afraid bringing her home that when we fed her, it'd kill her - that her systems were either already shut down or about to. There are no words to describe the happiness my sister and I feel knowing she and the others are making the progress that they are.

[Snakesitter]

Chu/Wuti, those letters are not something to throw around lightly. There has been nothing in his post to raise that possibility, either. And as an experienced keeper, I'm sure he would know the symptoms of that disease already.

Rather than fears, I think he deserves huge credit for doing such a wonderful job rehabilitating a trio of sadly neglected pets.

[Snakesitter]

^^^ Agreed ^^^. Always better safe than sorry.

[Nataku]

Thursday was Baby's 1 year old birthday. She got a mouse instead of cake. Hope she didn't feel too slighted by that. xD
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC03998.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04011.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04021.jpg
She just shed a couple weeks ago but she's already going back into blue eye, so we expect another shed within the next week.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04506.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04508.jpg
She's looking so much better, no longer wrinkly, pyramiding or with a concave belly. When she came home with Abraxxos and I, her widest point was not even that of my ring finger. Now she's fatter than my thumb, and has put on several inches. After this next shed we will measure her again.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04503.jpg
Here she is with Justice, her mother, checking out the big girl's cage while we spot clean Baby's cage.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04511.jpg
And then back into her own cage for some peace and quiet time while we wait for her to shed.

[Kimmie]

u are a angel for helping those animals <3

[Hannibalcanibal]

Agreed, nothing warms my heart like seeing someone help animals. Good for you! I wish i could do rescue work, but, i'm just a teen living with my parents.... Good thing we have people like you to help the animals that need it....

[Nataku]

Thank you for the kind words Kimmie, along with everyone else.

We also had Jewel out a few days ago. Took her out for some time to stretch out.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04153.jpg
She just sat there in the grass at first after we took her out of her travel sack and tub. Didn't move. I don't think she knew what to do.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04201.jpg
Then she saw me, and made a bee line for me, and proceeded to climb up my legs to sit on my shoulder.
...maybe she doesn't quite understand the concept of outside time as well as some of the other snakes yet.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04176.jpg
So we put her down and tried again after a few minutes. This time she seemed more comfortable being on the ground and didn't immediately return to my shoulders.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04178.jpg
I really love her dark markings personally.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04183.jpg
Checking out the camera again to see if this is something she can climb on too. Her face is slowly getting better. Now that her RI is cleared up and she no longer has mucus everywhere the inflammation of her facial injury is also going down and becoming much less significant. Maybe in time it will go away, as it is not as severe as Monty's mouth rot.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04165.jpg
My sister hanging with Jewel.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04161.jpg
Jewel's eyes are gorgeous. Kind of reminds me of a full moon really.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/Sytalith/DSC04162.jpg
But that one little dark spot above her eye on her scale drives us buggers. Every time we see it we have the knee jerk reaction of 'oh god she's got a mite on her eye! Mites! Sterilize everything!' ... and then we realize its just that little dark spot she has. Bah.

[RandyRhoads]

Poor things.... I don't understand the whole "Throwing a fit if they aren't together" thing buy good job helping them. Kudos...

[Abraxxos]

Poor things.... I don't understand the whole "Throwing a fit if they aren't together" thing buy good job helping them. Kudos...

Okay... have you ever seen a person having a panic attack? Now how about a seizure? Put seizure jerking together with the pacing of a panic attack and you have Monty's behaviour when he cannot physically see Justice (except during feeding). Literally has a fit and will struggle to get into her cage if she is in a separate enclosure. He would actually hit himself against the enclosure walls trying to get out. You put Justice in with him and just about immediate calm. Justice doesn't flip out as much except for right when you're moving her from him.

[RandyRhoads]

Okay... have you ever seen a person having a panic attack? Now how about a seizure?

Nope i'm the only Paramedic who's never witnessed a panic attack or seizure. :yes:

Put seizure jerking together with the pacing of a panic attack and you have Monty's behaviour when he cannot physically see Justice (except during feeding). Literally has a fit and will struggle to get into her cage if she is in a separate enclosure. He would actually hit himself against the enclosure walls trying to get out. You put Justice in with him and just about immediate calm. Justice doesn't flip out as much except for right when you're moving her from him.

Here we go.
:Wow:
That has nothing to do with them missing each other. If your snake is doing that something is wrong with it.


I'm not trying to be an A hole. I like to joke, don't take it personal, but somethings up with er...that....

[Abraxxos]

Nope i'm the only Paramedic who's never witnessed a panic attack or seizure. :yes:



Here we go.
:Wow:
That has nothing to do with them missing each other. If your snake is doing that something is wrong with it.


I'm not trying to be an A hole. I like to joke, don't take it personal, but somethings up with er...that....

You're right. There is something wrong with that. It's separation stress. I didn't say they 'missed' each other. Everyone knows snakes don't feel like that ~dripping sarcasm~. (Don't get me started on that, let's just agree to disagree because that's a stupid flame war waiting to happen, and Randy, I've already established I like you. I really don't want to not like you because of a disagreement) Don't take it personally, but you haven't seen these snakes and you haven't seen every case in the world by any means. I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but I can already tell you you're wrong. These snakes have been seen by several vets now who, after not only having the behaviour described but watching the behaviour themselves, they explained it as stress induced by separation. The change in the norm (the norm being with the other snake) is too jarring for them and was described as making them feel vulnerable.

If you want to disagree, that's fine, I really don't give a hoot. The animals have been seen by multiple long time experienced vets who are professionals and know what they're doing and aside from the 3 problems being fixed (Or have already been fixed)(RI, emaciation, mouth rot injuries), they're fine.

[Aaron_S]

Yup with a quick skim of the thread they look in better health.

It's foolish to consider or pass on information that snakes have separation anxiety or "stress". I have yet to be given any definitive proof of this. I'd venture to say one enclosure is simply better suited.

[KORBIN5895]

So you're saying that solitary creatures that only seek each other out for sex during a certain time of year have separation anxiety? Sure sounds legit to me.

Also IBD isn't fast in boas. They can carry it for a long time without symptoms and they can show symptoms for a quite awhile without death.

[Abraxxos]

Yup with a quick skim of the thread they look in better health.

It's foolish to consider or pass on information that snakes have separation anxiety or "stress". I have yet to be given any definitive proof of this. I'd venture to say one enclosure is simply better suited.

I have yet to be given any definitive proof that states herps don't have anxiety or stress. And, telling everyone right now, pointing out that they don't have limbic systems means jack to me so just really don't even bother. Falling on deaf uncaring ears.

[smy_749]

Nobody showed me definitive proof that snakes don't understand me when I speak to them, so therefore, they must understand me.

[Abraxxos]

So you're saying that solitary creatures that only seek each other out for sex during a certain time of year have separation anxiety? Sure sounds legit to me.

Also IBD isn't fast in boas. They can carry it for a long time without symptoms and they can show symptoms for a quite awhile without death.

Please pay attention to details before putting words into somebody's mouth. Not once did I say anything specifying separation anxiety. I said stress. Considering advice is constantly given to not handle animals like chameleons because they are easily 'stressed' I don't want to hear anything from anybody saying herps don't experience stress. Also, snakes aren't solely solitary. However, not the point of the thread. Please move on.

Nor do I understand why it would ever be foolish to pass on the information of people who study these animals and their health for a living. Especially when more than 4 of them came up with the same conclusion. These snakes are not wild and have been together for a long time. It is not unheard of to find some snakes that do get along and some that don't. There is nothing implicating that said interactions couldn't be further expressed.

Smy, will you quit your arrogant ****? I'm not saying that because there isn't proof to say otherwise it's true. I'm saying you don't know whether or not it is. You don't honestly know if your snake understands or not. If a dog can learn to read and a gorilla can learn sign language and reptiles like monitors have already proven they can learn new behaviours, what exactly makes you think that they don't understand simply choose to ignore you? You don't. Monty understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath. Now I'm pretty sure thats more of it's a loud tonal noise that's making him rethink exiting the tub less of an actual recognition and understanding but besides that none of you actually know. I don't claim to know. They haven't actually mapped out the human brains yet or dog brains... They've barely scratched the surface of reptile brains.

Now. The topic of this thread is is the rescue and well being of these snakes, not your unknowledgeable prejudice on an unrelated debate that remains long winded and fruitless. Nothing anyone here can tell me at all will convince me otherwise. So before you waste your time, don't bother. If you want to start a debate thread, be my guest, but this is not the thread for said nonsense.

[KORBIN5895]

' I don't want to hear anything from anybody saying herps don't experience stress. Also, snakes aren't solely solitary. However, not the point of the thread. Please move on.
.

You say that a lot. You obviously don't like hearing anyone contradict your foolish ideas.

Yes boas are a solitary animal. As a matter of fact the vast majority of snakes are solitary animals. Do you know anything about them?

The more you talk the crazier you sound, especially with statements like " Monty
understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it
comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath."

[smy_749]

You say that a lot. You obviously don't like hearing anyone contradict your foolish ideas.

Yes boas are a solitary animal. As a matter of fact the vast majority of snakes are solitary animals. Do you know anything about them?

The more you talk the crazier you sound, especially with statements like " Monty
understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it
comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath."


I wish I didn't delete the PM's she sent me when I doubted her being raised by dogs. Seriously....

[Aaron_S]

Please pay attention to details before putting words into somebody's mouth. Not once did I say anything specifying separation anxiety. I said stress. Considering advice is constantly given to not handle animals like chameleons because they are easily 'stressed' I don't want to hear anything from anybody saying herps don't experience stress. Also, snakes aren't solely solitary. However, not the point of the thread. Please move on.

Correct, reptiles experience stress from handling. Incorrect to assume it's all the same "stress". You were the one who implicated a specific stress as in separation stress. I only replied to that point, don't go changing your tune now to suit your needs.

Snakes are solitary. They do not have flocks, herds or prides in the wild. A handful of species do come together for specific times of the year but they don't go pair off or live in a family. They literally come together to make new snakes and that's it for most species. This is widely known.

Nor do I understand why it would ever be foolish to pass on the information of people who study these animals and their health for a living. Especially when more than 4 of them came up with the same conclusion.

Please post these findings of these people here http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-discussion/96528-reptillian-theories.html

Monty understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath. Now I'm pretty sure thats more of it's a loud tonal noise that's making him rethink exiting the tub less of an actual recognition and understanding but besides that none of you actually know
Considering snakes lack a real external ear I'd say it's something else. Post a video for us please so we can "know" just like you then.

Now. The topic of this thread is is the rescue and well being of these snakes, not your unknowledgeable prejudice on an unrelated debate that remains long winded and fruitless. Nothing anyone here can tell me at all will convince me otherwise. So before you waste your time, don't bother. If you want to start a debate thread, be my guest, but this is not the thread for said nonsense.

It isn't unrelated. The well being of these animals and future animals is being discussed. If someone wants to set them up as they weren't solitary then the well being of those animals could be in trouble. Considering there's been FAR more problems with co-living situations than not, I'd say you're putting the snakes well being at risk. This is an issue that any long time keeper has seen. The best part is that it's all but gone from the hobby as it seems to have really caught on to individually house snakes. I wish you'd update your husbandry practices.

[Terranaut]

Wether wild statements or not can we move this part of the thread to the other thread Aaron listed and keep this a rescue thread? It's a great rescue and the snakes are obviously doing much better. Not saying we can't discuss snakes thought paterns just not here. I would hate to see a thread with such a successful rescue end up in a flame war.

[Hannibalcanibal]

I know i don't post much, but.....

If the snakes are doing better (which the pictures prove), i don't think it really matters what kind of "crazy" stuff she believes about snakes, just as long as the snakes are healthy (they are).

With that aside, my snakes don't care whether it is silent or i'm blasting death metal as loud as my speakers go. Snakes do not hear, feel, or care if you say "no". So, from a scientific perspective, it is not accurate to say they have seperation anxiety, or that they respond to "no".

But, the snakes are obviously getting better, so to me it does not matter if you "humanize" snakes. They are obviously in good hands, so i'm not worried about it at all.

[Abraxxos]

You say that a lot. You obviously don't like hearing anyone contradict your foolish ideas.

Yes boas are a solitary animal. As a matter of fact the vast majority of snakes are solitary animals. Do you know anything about them?

The more you talk the crazier you sound, especially with statements like " Monty
understands 'NO' better than most dogs when it
comes to him wanting to slither out of the bath."

First, nobody asked your rude opinion, second, I never specifically said boas, I said snakes, and they've actually found a lot of snakes living in close quarters during winter coming together for sex and warmth. Do YOU know anything about them or are you unaware of what the definition of solitary is? Because hundreds of snakes isn't solitary. I don't mind contradicting ideas. I do mind idiots who can do nothing but poke fun and harass an OP who obviously isn't affecting her animals negatively, but positively, actually. Third, you're funny, because attacking somebody with insults when they say something you don't like is the really childish thing to do and, might I add, what a majority of people do when they 'don't like hearing others contradict you'. ;)

I know i don't post much, but.....

If the snakes are doing better (which the pictures prove), i don't think it really matters what kind of "crazy" stuff she believes about snakes, just as long as the snakes are healthy (they are).

With that aside, my snakes don't care whether it is silent or i'm blasting death metal as loud as my speakers go. Snakes do not hear, feel, or care if you say "no". So, from a scientific perspective, it is not accurate to say they have seperation anxiety, or that they respond to "no".

But, the snakes are obviously getting better, so to me it does not matter if you "humanize" snakes. They are obviously in good hands, so i'm not worried about it at all.

Again, I never said they had separation anxiety. I said they experience stress which obviously they do. If nobody here has never experienced snakes reacting that way, well sucks for you guys.

As for the music? I haven't found a majority of loud noises bother the snakes unless they are very sudden or too loud. The asshats who live below me are constantly having parties and blaring music so loud my entire apartment shakes and this has shown plenty of times to piss off some of my nicest snakes and freak them out. Bass heavy music + too loud = bad for my snakes. Radio, one of my other BCIs, was never aggressive, but the party freaked him out enough he tagged me pretty good while I was cleaning then proceeded to hiss like a feral cat. I think that was less sound more the vibrations.


It isn't unrelated. The well being of these animals and future animals is being discussed. If someone wants to set them up as they weren't solitary then the well being of those animals could be in trouble. Considering there's been FAR more problems with co-living situations than not, I'd say you're putting the snakes well being at risk. This is an issue that any long time keeper has seen. The best part is that it's all but gone from the hobby as it seems to have really caught on to individually house snakes. I wish you'd update your husbandry practices.

It is, as these are opinions and conjecture and a variety of insults from those disagreeing. You may have seen negative problems emerging from group housing, but I haven't. Treat me like any other member and if it's such a mistake, then let it be a mistake and let it be so the natural learning process may occur. Obviously, my snakes are doing fine and making great progression. Thank you for your input, considering yours wasn't insult ridden, but again, I did say not to waste your breath, didn't I?

There's nothing to 'catch on' to. All of my snakes except for these two are housed individually and you know what? They do perfectly together. No problems. For your information, I actually have a spare enclosure set up specifically for the other snake in case something arises.

As for husbandry updates? I wish people wouldn't bother to post about things I've already asked you not to but... that's not happening, now is it? Since you must know, an update will be posted in about a week and a half or so. Some creative updates might be made sooner, perhaps Thursday, but it's entirely possible the post won't be made until later. The significant other is coming down and I'll be introducing him to the wonders of herp keeping and everything that goes with it. Especially on the weekend other than light comments, I probably won't be making any big posts while he is here. I plan on playing with some enclosure ideas to get them more decorated and I'm really considering air plants, but I absolutely suck at growing plants however easy everyone makes them out to be. There is nothing to update until then. I'm sorry I'm not like a lot of you who think a single change in degree is worth updating about. 'Day 1456... The temperature raised 2 degrees like it should during the day. Nothing else has changed - Night 1456... The temperature has dropped 2 degrees like it should during the day' I don't see the point in making continued posts on husbandry if the enclosure isn't actually changing. To me it's not even a post worth talking about. 'Oh wow, Mike! Look at that your enclosure... It's the exact same it was last week. And the week before. And the week before that' Just not my thing I suppose. I'll update on the snakes because the snakes are actually changing but husbandry updates like that don't ring as important to me. I understand the importance of correct husbandry, do not misconstrue that as me thinking husbandry isn't important. I just don't think it's important enough to make an update on unless I'm making a post stating a problem and the husbandry needs to be known so as to diagnose.

Wether wild statements or not can we move this part of the thread to the other thread Aaron listed and keep this a rescue thread? It's a great rescue and the snakes are obviously doing much better. Not saying we can't discuss snakes thought paterns just not here. I would hate to see a thread with such a successful rescue end up in a flame war.

+1

That would be the general reason behind me asking them not to bother when that's all it will wind up being.

[Aaron_S]

As for husbandry updates? I wish people wouldn't bother to post about things I've already asked you not to but...

Open forum...I don't get why people think because they make a thread that they get to moderate it.

that's not happening, now is it? Since you must know, an update will be posted in about a week and a half or so. Some creative updates might be made sooner, perhaps Thursday, but it's entirely possible the post won't be made until later. The significant other is coming down and I'll be introducing him to the wonders of herp keeping and everything that goes with it. Especially on the weekend other than light comments, I probably won't be making any big posts while he is here. I plan on playing with some enclosure ideas to get them more decorated and I'm really considering air plants, but I absolutely suck at growing plants however easy everyone makes them out to be. There is nothing to update until then. I'm sorry I'm not like a lot of you who think a single change in degree is worth updating about. 'Day 1456... The temperature raised 2 degrees like it should during the day. Nothing else has changed - Night 1456... The temperature has dropped 2 degrees like it should during the day' I don't see the point in making continued posts on husbandry if the enclosure isn't actually changing. To me it's not even a post worth talking about. 'Oh wow, Mike! Look at that your enclosure... It's the exact same it was last week. And the week before. And the week before that' Just not my thing I suppose. I'll update on the snakes because the snakes are actually changing but husbandry updates like that don't ring as important to me. I understand the importance of correct husbandry, do not misconstrue that as me thinking husbandry isn't important. I just don't think it's important enough to make an update on unless I'm making a post stating a problem and the husbandry needs to be known so as to diagnose.

I enjoyed the fact you spewed this giant paragraph for a complete misunderstanding. I don't care when you post or if you post ever.

I meant physically UPDATING your husbandry practices. As in going with the modern way of reptile keeping and not the out dated ones.

I'd like you to post the relevant information in the thread I linked to. I have yet to have anyone really post good information for their responses or ideas in it. You said there's 4 people with work on the subject.

[franks]

It's separation stress.
they explained it as stress induced by separation.

You did refer to it as separation anxiety.

Regardless, I do think it is awesome what you are doing for the animals. I think some of the feeding pics you showed, especially monty's, indicate that your snakes could take larger meals. I agree with Terranaut that this is a great thread and does not need to be dragged through the mud. We are all responsible for our own words, I would like to encourage you to refrain from antagonistic language if you would like to keep this thread on track.

[Abraxxos]

Open forum...I don't get why people think because they make a thread that they get to moderate it.



I enjoyed the fact you spewed this giant paragraph for a complete misunderstanding. I don't care when you post or if you post ever.

I meant physically UPDATING your husbandry practices. As in going with the modern way of reptile keeping and not the out dated ones.

I'd like you to post the relevant information in the thread I linked to. I have yet to have anyone really post good information for their responses or ideas in it. You said there's 4 people with work on the subject.

Considering only pictures of 2 of my enclosures have been posted, you have no idea how my enclosures are done nor have any ideas how updated they are. You have no idea whether my enclosures are better than yours or not even. Again. You wish some things, I wish others.

You act like I care enough to post that info. You act like I have that info. I'm not the person with the work on it. Why would I have y of it? I don't even know if they have any of their work published. Can't you understand paraphrasing what somebody else said?

How do you not understand that this thread has an actual point. It's a rescue thread not an 'insert stupid opinions here/flame/debate' thread. It's a thread for me to post updates on my animals and their health not a 'spew your disagreements' thread. Is that too much to ask?

[Aaron_S]

Considering only pictures of 2 of my enclosures have been posted, you have no idea how my enclosures are done nor have any ideas how updated they are. You have no idea whether my enclosures are better than yours or not even. Again. You wish some things, I wish others.

You act like I care enough to post that info. You act like I have that info. I'm not the person with the work on it. Why would I have y of it? I don't even know if they have any of their work published. Can't you understand paraphrasing what somebody else said?

How do you not understand that this thread has an actual point. It's a rescue thread not an 'insert stupid opinions here/flame/debate' thread. It's a thread for me to post updates on my animals and their health not a 'spew your disagreements' thread. Is that too much to ask?


Wait wait wait...so no one can make a disagreement with you because YOU don't want it?

You still clearly don't get my point about husbandry. You're using out of date information in trying to have multiple solitary creatures live together. If you miss it this time then I'm simply done with the point because you clearly will never see it.

I know what "paraphrasing" is. The whole reason this discussion came up is because you're making absurd claims to animals and how they apparently can "bond" to one another. I simply asked for the proof of the 4 people who have work on it. If it's not published it's scribbles in a notebook! You're making up lies at this point to prove yourself correct. Stop it. Stop making wild accusations without backing them up.

[Little Wise Owl]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35667018.jpg

I think it's pretty rad that you rescued these animals. I'll stay out of the other debate though. I don't have the energy today. lol

[Abraxxos]

Wait wait wait...so no one can make a disagreement with you because YOU don't want it?

You still clearly don't get my point about husbandry. You're using out of date information in trying to have multiple solitary creatures live together. If you miss it this time then I'm simply done with the point because you clearly will never see it.

I know what "paraphrasing" is. The whole reason this discussion came up is because you're making absurd claims to animals and how they apparently can "bond" to one another. I simply asked for the proof of the 4 people who have work on it. If it's not published it's scribbles in a notebook! You're making up lies at this point to prove yourself correct. Stop it. Stop making wild accusations without backing them up.

If you want to say something is a lie because you simply haven't experienced it yourself, that's your deal. That's fine but take it to a different thread. This isn't the thread for that. I didn't say people can't disagree, but just because somebody says something you disagree with, especially on a topic so untouched like a reptile's brain, it doesn't make them a liar. It doesn't make them wrong. It makes them open minded enough they aren't going to jump down a person throat (like you are) when somebody says something they don't necessarily share the same feelings for.

One thing I hate about the herp community. The majority's ability to start a flame over a keeper who simply stated an opinion and claim somebody is a liar just because they've had an uncommon experience.

Opinions are like really big dicks. It's more than fine to have one, but don't go shoving it down everyones throats.

[Abraxxos]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35667018.jpg

I think it's pretty rad that you rescued these animals. I'll stay out of the other debate though. I don't have the energy today. lol

+1 Thank you.

[RandyRhoads]

+1 Thank you.

For what? I'm willing to bet she wouldn't be on your side...

[Aaron_S]

If you want to say something is a lie because you simply haven't experienced it yourself, that's your deal. That's fine but take it to a different thread. This isn't the thread for that. I didn't say people can't disagree, but just because somebody says something you disagree with, especially on a topic so untouched like a reptile's brain, it doesn't make them a liar. It doesn't make them wrong. It makes them open minded enough they aren't going to jump down a person throat (like you are) when somebody says something they don't necessarily share the same feelings for.

One thing I hate about the herp community. The majority's ability to start a flame over a keeper who simply stated an opinion and claim somebody is a liar just because they've had an uncommon experience.

Opinions are like really big dicks. It's more than fine to have one, but don't go shoving it down everyones throats.

I pointed you to the other thread. You haven't posted and went off about some random people you probably made up.

Some little known fact about me, in my mid - late teens I worked in pet stores with multitude of reptiles. I saw multiple animals in cages and I would regularly pull them out to sell or whatever and not an issue with separation. So I haven't experienced it? Try again. I've got more than you're single sample.

Hello? Do you read what I put? I asked for proof of your points. Meaning I am open minded to the idea IF there's information to back it up. You cast off the whole limbic system idea so who's really open minded here? Who's the one leaving facts out to better substantiate their ideas so they aren't wrong?

You can say what you want about "flaming" but it wasn't started that way. I called you a liar when you started "paraphrasing" random things.

This forum, and I'm sure others, strongly dislike liars. There was one and she no longer exists on any forums. No shame in not being experienced or anything but don't lie about it to make yourself look cool.

[Abraxxos]

For what? I'm willing to bet she wouldn't be on your side...

I'm thanking her for not being incredibly rude and debating something that is just a flame. No matter what the reason is she chose not to argue, the point is, she didn't. I don't care who's side she is on. Sides don't matter. Respect matters. Something a lot of you have proven you don't have.

[Abraxxos]

Hello? Do you read what I put? I asked for proof of your points. Meaning I am open minded to the idea IF there's information to back it up. You cast off the whole limbic system idea so who's really open minded here? Who's the one leaving facts out to better substantiate their ideas so they aren't wrong?

This forum, and I'm sure others, strongly dislike liars. There was one and she no longer exists on any forums. No shame in not being experienced or anything but don't lie about it to make yourself look cool.

Hello? Do you read what I put? I pointed out those aren't my points and I care nothing to debate with you. Again, if you want to call it a lie, that's fine. I don't care. Go right ahead. I don't cast off the whole limbic system idea. I am open minded. To the fact to a reptile's brain doesn't work the same as a humans brain. Yes. They do not have a limbic system and in MAMMALS limbic systems control things like emotions. These aren't mammals. We don't know enough about reptilian brains to know that there isn't another part of the brain that takes care of that instead. Yeah a limbic system does that in mammals. This isn't a mammal. They work very differently from mammals. We expect their brains to work similarly but the truth is we don't know if they work similarly or not. That is my argument and the only argument I care to post because it is valid as **** and nobody can prove it wrong because nobody has that proof because nobody knows. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. They haven't even mapped out the human brain entirely. They don't know all of it's functions. Why should we expect to know how a reptile's brain functions? We don't actually know. I've had this debate multiple times and I really don't care to have it again. Nobody cares what I think, though, I'm crazy, remember? I don't like bothering to debate with people who resort to insulting people and making obscene accusations.

[Aaron_S]

I'm thanking her for not being incredibly rude and debating something that is just a flame. No matter what the reason is she chose not to argue, the point is, she didn't. I don't care who's side she is on. Sides don't matter. Respect matters. Something a lot of you have proven you don't have.

You're so silly.

It's not a flame. It's a debate. We've tried engaging you in it but you sit there and say "NO!" and cross your arms like a child because we aren't playing by your rules but the open forum rules.

We've asked for further information and you simply stand by the fact of YOUR experience in this ONE case as if it's fact for the entire species. Prove to us that they aren't solitary creatures. You made that statement as well.

I've got respect. Lots of it for people. You can earn some but I highly doubt you'll be around long enough. You seem to think "it's your way or the highway". Maybe in your LARP world where all the men around you will be your sycophants because they don't see women except relatives that works but not here, not on the web or in the real world.

[Abraxxos]

You're so silly.

It's not a flame. It's a debate. We've tried engaging you in it but you sit there and say "NO!" and cross your arms like a child because we aren't playing by your rules but the open forum rules.

We've asked for further information and you simply stand by the fact of YOUR experience in this ONE case as if it's fact for the entire species. Prove to us that they aren't solitary creatures. You made that statement as well.

I've got respect. Lots of it for people. You can earn some but I highly doubt you'll be around long enough. You seem to think "it's your way or the highway". Maybe in your LARP world where all the men around you will be your sycophants because they don't see women except relatives that works but not here, not on the web or in the real world.

When there are insults, it's a flame. I'm crossing my arms and saying no because perhaps, I dunno, maybe, just maybe I don't want to debate. Maybe, just maybe, THIS ISN'T A DEBATE THREAD. You can't force people to debate. Maybe just maybe I'm a pacifist who doesn't really like arguing conjecture. I've already sat here and said if you want to believe that fine whatever I don't care. I've already sat here and asked you to stop because I don't give enough of a **** to actually argue. You've already sat here and established you don't actually give a **** about what I post so WHY for God's sake are you harassing me trying to get me to post?

[Aaron_S]

Hello? Do you read what I put? I pointed out those aren't my points and I care nothing to debate with you.

Wait. They aren't your points? What would these be then?

You're right. There is something wrong with that. It's separation stress. I didn't say they 'missed' each other. Everyone knows snakes don't feel like that ~dripping sarcasm~.

These snakes have been seen by several vets now who, after not only having the behaviour described but watching the behaviour themselves, they explained it as stress induced by separation. The change in the norm (the norm being with the other snake) is too jarring for them and was described as making them feel vulnerable.

Huh. Those look like points you fully agree with and take on as your own.

I don't cast off the whole limbic system idea.

This is counter to what you said.

And, telling everyone right now, pointing out that they don't have limbic systems means jack to me so just really don't even bother

You do cast it off. Why do you switch views all the time to suit your next argument?

I am open minded.

Obviously not. Here's where you shut someone else down.

Don't take it personally, but you haven't seen these snakes and you haven't seen every case in the world by any means. I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but I can already tell you you're wrong.

Yeah...open minded to other's ideas. Clearly shown.



To the fact to a reptile's brain doesn't work the same as a humans brain. Yes. They do not have a limbic system and in MAMMALS limbic systems control things like emotions. These aren't mammals. We don't know enough about reptilian brains to know that there isn't another part of the brain that takes care of that instead. Yeah a limbic system does that in mammals. This isn't a mammal. They work very differently from mammals. We expect their brains to work similarly but the truth is we don't know if they work similarly or not. That is my argument and the only argument I care to post because it is valid as **** and nobody can prove it wrong because nobody has that proof because nobody knows. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. They haven't even mapped out the human brain entirely. They don't know all of it's functions. Why should we expect to know how a reptile's brain functions? We don't actually know. I've had this debate multiple times and I really don't care to have it again. Nobody cares what I think, though, I'm crazy, remember? I don't like bothering to debate with people who resort to insulting people and making obscene accusations.

I never called you crazy. I called you liar. You say they've seen "professionals" but a lot of people claim to be "reptile professionals" and they really aren't. You haven't given names or reports. Considering you've had this debate before you should know that factual documentation is key to proving ones point.

Why not have this done by them? Why not show the world you've got ground breaking animals in your own house? If you truly have your stance and it's fine then why not try to sway everybody else with the facts you apparently have?

Clearly there's something wrong with this picture.

I make my opinions based on the current data available. When it changes then I'll re-assess my views and go from there. I don't mind being wrong but I'd like proof I'm wrong and not someone spouting off about some random rescues. Apparently this ONLY happens with rescues. Not a single other pair of snakes.

[Aaron_S]

When there are insults, it's a flame. I'm crossing my arms and saying no because perhaps, I dunno, maybe, just maybe I don't want to debate. Maybe, just maybe, THIS ISN'T A DEBATE THREAD. You can't force people to debate. Maybe just maybe I'm a pacifist who doesn't really like arguing conjecture. I've already sat here and said if you want to believe that fine whatever I don't care. I've already sat here and asked you to stop because I don't give enough of a **** to actually argue. You've already sat here and established you don't actually give a **** about what I post so WHY for God's sake are you harassing me trying to get me to post?

I'm not harassing you. You just keep doing it.

Debate thread or not you brought up the initial statement. Responded to those who made remarks towards it and kept up this conversation.

I see it as this. Current data doesn't support your views. I simply want to state the truth so new people don't come reading your views and go "hey! Reptiles are deep. They know how to love me and each other."

I'm trying to make it NOT conjecture but you refuse to back up your statements. Don't make them if you don't wish to be called on it.

[Abraxxos]

Clearly there's something wrong with this picture.


Clearly you're piecing together multiple conversations to make me look worse and misconstrue things. IF you'd read the whole post maybe you'd learn something or understand my points. You wanted a point. There's my point. Take it or leave it. You asked for it, I put it out there. You don't like it. Not my ****ing problem. End of story.

Current data? You mean INCOMPLETE data. You mean data that scratches the surface of the reptilian brain and only proves they are different from mammals. Oh my god. That's such a discovery! You can tell they're different just by looking at them. Holy mother of god Batman, they have scales. Holy bat nipples Batman, they're cold blooded! Holy anatomy Batman, they have a Jacobson's Organ - a forked tongue - HEMI PENES. Obviously they aren't like us. OBviously their brains don't work the same either. There is nothing to back it up. It's conjecture. Theory. Nothing more nothing less. OPINION. Oh my god, stone me, burn me on the stake and condemn me to hell for I expressed an opinion.

I don't understand assholes like you. You sit there and you badger, harass insult and accuse and when the person finally replies with something valid, you **** all over it. Please get a life.

[Aaron_S]

Clearly you're piecing together multiple conversations to make me look worse and misconstrue things. IF you'd read the whole post maybe you'd learn something or understand my points. You wanted a point. There's my point. Take it or leave it. You asked for it, I put it out there. You don't like it. Not my ****ing problem. End of story.

I don't understand assholes like you. You sit there and you badger, harass insult and accuse and when the person finally replies with something valid, you **** all over it. Please get a life.

It isn't valid...I asked for the validation. Politely at first. You refused. That's fine but don't get the panties in a wad when you're called on it.

I love being told to get a life. I have quite a fine one thank you.

Since you edited: They aren't actually "cold-blooded". Their blood rises to higher degrees than ours does! "Ectotherm" would be a much better choice in words.

Oh, by the way, are snakes solitary?

[smy_749]

Clearly you're piecing together multiple conversations to make me look worse and misconstrue things. IF you'd read the whole post maybe you'd learn something or understand my points. You wanted a point. There's my point. Take it or leave it. You asked for it, I put it out there. You don't like it. Not my ****ing problem. End of story.

I don't understand assholes like you. You sit there and you badger, harass insult and accuse and when the person finally replies with something valid, you **** all over it. Please get a life.

Now who is being vulgar? ....

[Abraxxos]

It isn't valid...I asked for the validation. Politely at first. You refused. That's fine but don't get the panties in a wad when you're called on it.

I love being told to get a life. I have quite a fine one thank you.

Since you edited: They aren't actually "cold-blooded". Their blood rises to higher degrees than ours does! "Ectotherm" would be a much better choice in words.

Oh, by the way, are snakes solitary?

I AM NOT ****ING DEBATING WITH YOU. GET OVER YOURSELF AND STOP BADGERING ME FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY. For the last ****ing time, there IS NO VALIDATION BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF BECAUSE THESE ARE ALL THEORIES ON SOMETHING WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.

It is not illegal or wrong or against the rules to have a ****ing opinion. I have asked you without vulgarity to stop and I have NO PROBLEMS asking Wayne to just close the ****ing thread and taking the time to start a new one free of this bullshit.

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD. TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. SERIOUSLY. FFS. End of the mother****ing story. Done. SO DONE with you and your asinine remarks and you sitting there acting like you give a **** about an opinion, asking for it and then completely ignoring it. What the **** was even the point of that? There wasn't one.

Now who is being vulgar? ....

Vulgar but not directly insulting. There's a difference between saying 'I'm ****ing done, I feel like ****, I ****ed up, for ****s sake, etc' and saying '**** you, you are a piece of ****'

[smy_749]

I don't understand assholes like you. You sit there and you badger, harass insult and accuse and when the person finally replies with something valid, you **** all over it. Please get a life.

Kind of like this?

[Abraxxos]

Kind of like this?

Yes actually. I'm being vulgar. Frankly I don't give a ****. I've been nice. I've refrained from being vulgar and insulting when nobody else did. I obviously can't be extended that courtesy so why should I show any of you that respect? Clearly you don't deserve it.

[Aaron_S]

I AM NOT ****ING DEBATING WITH YOU. GET OVER YOURSELF AND STOP BADGERING ME FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY. For the last ****ing time, there IS NO VALIDATION BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF BECAUSE THESE ARE ALL THEORIES ON SOMETHING WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.

It is not illegal or wrong or against the rules to have a ****ing opinion. I have asked you without vulgarity to stop and I have NO PROBLEMS asking Wayne to just close the ****ing thread and taking the time to start a new one free of this bullshit.

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD. TAKE IT ELSEWHERE. SERIOUSLY. FFS. End of the mother****ing story. Done. SO DONE with you and your asinine remarks and you sitting there acting like you give a **** about an opinion, asking for it and then completely ignoring it. What the **** was even the point of that? There wasn't one.



Vulgar but not directly insulting. There's a difference between saying 'I'm ****ing done, I feel like ****, I ****ed up, for ****s sake, etc' and saying '**** you, you are a piece of ****'

Calm down there child.

Debates can happen in any thread.It's the point of an open forum.

You may not have wanted to continue it but someone else could have. I am not badgering you.

I heard your opinion. I just wanted more information. You don't want or have it to back up so it makes it invalid to this conversation. Current data supports they do not have these mental capabilities. CURRENT data as in the limbic system grants them and they don't have one. Ergo, it's simple to come to the conclusion until further data is brought forth that they don't have the capabilities.

I hope you can follow that train of thought. It's silly to disprove everything because "not enough work has been done".

[smy_749]

Yes actually. I'm being vulgar. Frankly I don't give a ****. I've been nice. I've refrained from being vulgar and insulting when nobody else did. I obviously can't be extended that courtesy so why should I show any of you that respect? Clearly you don't deserve it.


Its not about us and our behavior that got you mad, its about your fantasy land and your ideas started to crumble when aaron explained why they don't make any sense.

[Abraxxos]

Calm down there child.

Debates can happen in any thread.It's the point of an open forum.

You may not have wanted to continue it but someone else could have. I am not badgering you.

I heard your opinion. I just wanted more information. You don't want or have it to back up so it makes it invalid. Current data supports they do not have these mental capabilities. CURRENT data as in the limbic system grants them and they don't have one. Ergo, it's simple to come to the conclusion until further data is brought forth that they don't have the capabilities.

I hope you can follow that train of thought. It's silly to disprove everything because "not enough work has been done".

No it's not silly. YOU think it's silly. That is YOUR opinion. The entire world has been based off of theories turned reality for hundreds of years. Some theories were proven some weren't. But it doesn't make them invalid until they're proven wrong. I haven't been proven wrong. It's a theory. Theories are ideas. Guesses. Estimations. What-if's and maybes and there is nothing wrong with having them and thinking about them. Think about hundreds of years ago. Talking about the moon and space exploration? You would have been called a heretic. You would have been called crazy. You would have been called a liar. Every great scientist has been called crazy or a liar or what have you.

Point is, nobody else wanted to continue except for you and smy and every other disrespectful ******* here. I don't know what is wrong with you that you couldn't back off or take it else where but it's a huge character flaw right there that I want nothing to do with. When somebody tells you to stop touching them, you stop touching them. When somebody tells you to back off, you back off. When somebody tells you to respect them, you don't ask why and keep poking them, you ****ing respect them. I wasn't telling you to do anything. I was nicely asking and you're a big enough ******* you couldn't even respect that. I have already stated I do not give a **** about what your opinions are on the matter. I have already stated I do not give a **** about arguing with you. This isn't a debate, this is an argument. A flame. I have already stated this very obviously isn't the thread for this.

It's not that hard. You obviously do not care about what I have to say. So why continue bothering to post? It's not that hard. You see at the top right corner of your screen there should be a pretty red button with an x on it... Go ahead and click it.

[smy_749]

Hi, I'm not sure which planet you live on, but here on earth, the world is not based on 'theories and guesses'. Its based on scientific theories backed up with evidence and which have the ability to be tested/ have been tested and educated guesses etc. etc.. Any idiot with a brain can come up with a theory, doesn't make it valid however.

[Abraxxos]

Hi, I'm not sure which planet you live on, but here on earth, the world is not based on 'theories and guesses'. Its based on scientific theories backed up with evidence and which have the ability to be tested/ have been tested and educated guesses etc. etc.. Any idiot with a brain can come up with a theory, doesn't make it valid however.

Not sure what planet you live on, but here everything starts out with an idea. Cars and engines didn't just start existing. They were ideas and theories and designs first. A lot of our science was accidental or started out just as a lightbulb in or head.

[poison123]

Out here on Pluto, anything I say is right.

[Aaron_S]

No it's not silly. YOU think it's silly. That is YOUR opinion. The entire world has been based off of theories turned reality for hundreds of years. Some theories were proven some weren't. But it doesn't make them invalid until they're proven wrong. I haven't been proven wrong. It's a theory. Theories are ideas. Guesses. Estimations. What-if's and maybes and there is nothing wrong with having them and thinking about them. Think about hundreds of years ago. Talking about the moon and space exploration? You would have been called a heretic. You would have been called crazy. You would have been called a liar. Every great scientist has been called crazy or a liar or what have you.

Point is, nobody else wanted to continue except for you and smy and every other disrespectful ******* here. I don't know what is wrong with you that you couldn't back off or take it else where but it's a huge character flaw right there that I want nothing to do with. When somebody tells you to stop touching them, you stop touching them. When somebody tells you to back off, you back off. When somebody tells you to respect them, you don't ask why and keep poking them, you ****ing respect them. I wasn't telling you to do anything. I was nicely asking and you're a big enough ******* you couldn't even respect that. I have already stated I do not give a **** about what your opinions are on the matter. I have already stated I do not give a **** about arguing with you. This isn't a debate, this is an argument. A flame. I have already stated this very obviously isn't the thread for this.

It's not that hard. You obviously do not care about what I have to say. So why continue bothering to post? It's not that hard. You see at the top right corner of your screen there should be a pretty red button with an x on it... Go ahead and click it.

I told you. Respect must be earned. It isn't freely given.

I like how you've called out my points saying I've never experienced anything like you have and when I told you my experiences, and there's a lot, you totally ignore it. Because it undermines yours.

You started going after this "leave my thread" alone thing. It's fine I said. You're welcome to your opinions but you started it off as fact. I questioned that fact. You never made your "theory" clear that it was a "theory" until after more facts were asked for.

I continued on because you want everyone to be open minded to theories and "what ifs" in the world but yet you disregard facts that shut down some of those BASED ON CURRENT facts. For example, the limbic system thing. You disregard it because you simply don't believe it. That's fine but don't make statements as facts unless you're willing to hear facts or views that oppose yours.

[infernalis]

everybody take a deep breath and calm down.. I am temporarily suspending this thread. now go sit in your time out chairs and get over it.