Why have I never known these existed before?

[Pareeeee]

GTP Calico morphs. How have I not heard of these till now?

Pictures:
http://www.finegtps.com/userfiles/image/784.jpg

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/pjpeg/28736f7e21184a2abc5c1f430869aeb03c3a9e7e.pjpghttp://www.signalherp.com/images/05188gweb.jpg

http://www.finegtps.com/admin/adultsimages/d8e2cf1d663a19920fe999e03767b73b.jpg

[franks]

Some of these look like hybrids to me.

[Pareeeee]

Some of these look like hybrids to me.

Fine Green Tree Pythons | THE CALICO AND DREAM PROJECT (http://www.finegtps.com/the_calico_and_dream_project.php)

[franks]

Wow. Thanks for the link paree, fascinating read. They look great, i'd like to display one of these guys someday.
... Someday...

[sweatshirt]

WOAH... those are stunning.

[smy_749]

Calico is just another name for a random look. Gtp genetic are a complicated mystery as to how they are expressed/inherited. Could easily be described as melanistic or mite phases , and high yellows. I dont even think those are all calicos on his site...did they all say calico?

[smy_749]

Looking again (im on my phone) I believe the first is the best 'calico' being that it has the blacks , yellows, oranges etc.

[Amadeus]

I've seen these before. They aren't cheap....

[Abraxxos]

Not cheap, but definitely beautiful nonetheless.

[Amadeus]

Not cheap, but definitely beautiful nonetheless.

I'm too cheap to get morphs.

[marvelfreak]

Fine Green Tree Pythons | THE CALICO AND DREAM PROJECT (http://www.finegtps.com/the_calico_and_dream_project.php)
When i click on it it says error.

[smy_749]

You can get lucky with a wild caught and end up with something like these. And even if you bought a few of these and bred them, alot of your babies, maybe even all of them, could just end up normal, or you could receive an awesome clutch. Thats part of the awesomeness of GTP's, you can't predict how they will look as adults...ever. You can only guess, and they vary so much, even in WC animals.

[Aaron_S]

You can get lucky with a wild caught and end up with something like these. And even if you bought a few of these and bred them, alot of your babies, maybe even all of them, could just end up normal, or you could receive an awesome clutch. Thats part of the awesomeness of GTP's, you can't predict how they will look as adults...ever. You can only guess, and they vary so much, even in WC animals.

That's why the adult blues and like go for huge bucks (proven colouration) and the babies from these clutches go for thousands less. Problem is, you've got to hold a lot back.

Chuck, I get the same error. No idea why.

[Dave Kelley]

Some of these look like hybrids to me.

The link appears to be broken, but technically, these could be hybrids. Are they chondros, yes 100% absolutely. However, a study was done in 2003 that confirmed that there are two species of chondros...because the link is broken, I couldn't go in to look at lineages and such, but animals north of the dividing range have been classified as Morelia azureus, while animals south of the dividing range, along with animals in Australia's Iron Range are considered Morelia viridis. Rawlings and Donnellan found that a 7% divergence was apparent between the North and South forms....so technically, if any of those animals have a pedigree with a mix of the two, they are to be considered hybrids.

Here is a link to the paper for those interested:
http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu2/rawlings2003.pdf

Calico is just another name for a random look. Gtp genetic are a complicated mystery as to how they are expressed/inherited. Could easily be described as melanistic or mite phases , and high yellows. I dont even think those are all calicos on his site...did they all say calico?

Not trying to be rude, but how are GTP genetics complicated? Every chondro "morph" (albino aside) is nothing more than linebred traits. When looking into a chondro, you look into the lineage to see what went into making the hatchling for sale. If you want a blue chondro, then look at the lineage and see whether or not many blue/blue line animals went into that animals ancestry. Buying a hatchling is a crap shoot, yes, but it's far from complicated.

[Aaron_S]

You can get lucky with a wild caught and end up with something like these. And even if you bought a few of these and bred them, alot of your babies, maybe even all of them, could just end up normal, or you could receive an awesome clutch. Thats part of the awesomeness of GTP's, you can't predict how they will look as adults...ever. You can only guess, and they vary so much, even in WC animals.

I want to elaborate upon your point about predicting babies.

GTP's are polygenetic. Which means if you breed one with blue in it and another with blue in it there's a chance the babies will get 2 copies of the blue gene and thus intensify it. I believe this is a good example of how line breeding works in these regards. It can be seen in many species that are continually bred.

Here's a good explanation using ball pythons. Written by someone with a lot more knowledge than I.

"So, I have taken the stance that "Fader" is a polygenetic trait. For the sake of argument let us say that there are six genes involved that primarily contribute to high levels of blushing: Q, R, S, T, U and W. For the sake of simplicity we will just say that all of them are inc-dom type inheritance pattern (in reality it is going to be much more complicated but I prefer to look at it this way because the simple explanation gets the point across better)


Year 0: You start your project out with three male Pastels which, by the very nature of the Pastel gene, are more blushed out than your average WT. Now, the best way to get nice Pastel offspring it to breed your Pastel to an animal that has good blushing as well. So you go out and you find twelve WT females (four for every male that you have) that have good blushing to them; each of these females is carrying at least on of the six genes I mentioned above.

Year 1: You breed your Pastels to the blushed WTs and from each clutch you hold-back the best looking Pastel male and the best looking Pastel female. End of the year you get rid of everything but your Year 0 blushed WT females and your Year 1 holdback males and females

Year 2: You breed each of your Year 1 holdback males to four of the blushed WTs. These are going to be "who is your daddy" type clutches and from each clutch you hold-back the best looking Pastel male and the best looking Pastel female. End of the year you get rid of everything but your Year 0 blushed WT females, your Year 1 holdback females and your Year 2 holdback males and females.

Year 3: You breed each of your Year 2 holdback males to two of the blushed WTs and two of the Year 1 holdback females. These are going to be "who is your daddy" type clutches and from each clutch you hold-back the best looking Pastel male and the best looking Pastel female. End of the year you get rid of everything but your Year 1, and Year 2 holdback females and your Year 3 holdback males and females.

Year 4: You breed each of your Year 3 holdback males to two of the Year 1 holdback females and two of the Year 2. These are going to be "who is your daddy" type clutches and from each clutch you hold-back the best looking Pastel male and the best looking Pastel female. End of the year you get rid of everything but your Year 2 and Year 3 holdback females and your Year 4 holdback males and females.

Year 5: You breed each of your Year 4 holdback males to two of the Year 2 holdback females and two of the Year 3 holdback females. These are going to be "who is your daddy" type clutches and from each clutch you hold-back the best looking Pastel male and the best looking Pastel female. End of the year you get rid of everything but your Year 3 and Year 4 holdback females and your Year 5 holdback males and females.

And on and on and on.

It is this iterative process that is enriching for the six genes. The first year your hold backs are only carrying one of the genes, the second year they are carrying two, the third year, three... And once you start rotating in the Year 2 and above holdback females you begin to enrich faster because those Year 2 and later females are carrying more than one of the genes. It is when you get to the point were you have all six of the "blushing" genes in one animal you have a "Fader""

Hopefully you can all follow that.

From the member "asplundii" from the BLBC

[smy_749]

Good post and it makes sense Aaron, but doesn't each of the babies in a pastel x pastel clutch exhibit the pastel phenotype to some degree? Blue GTP x Blue GTP can result in an all green adult is why I guess I said its a bit more complicated. High yellow jungle x high yellow jungle will result in high yellow jungle babies, just some are brighter than others. etc. etc. So @ Kelley, I get that its line bred, and that they still carry the genes, I'm just saying that its more complicated as to how they are expressed....or no? Am I still off? This is how I understood it, maybe I need more explaining.

Also at Kelley, I know alot of the GTP breeders get beautiful blue animals or mite phase animals etc. from the wild without any line breeding which is another reason I said its a bit more mysterious/variable. Gregs Maxwells site is where I think I read alot of this in the Genetics section on Finegtp, but the site is down now for some reason.

[Dave Kelley]

I guess the expression could be considered more complicated. In my mind, it just seems as straightforward as anything else though...If someone wanted a mite phase animal, then just look at the lineage or for the locality that displays that look.

And yes, some unique chondro phenotypes do come from the wild, however, linebred animals are more likely to reproduce these traits successfully. Because the animal has had it's genetics lined up for generations, on generations for these extreme phenotypes, when bred, our linebred morphs will begin to demonstrate themselves a little more reliably. Now, that's not to say that an animal from the wild couldn't reproduce itself just as well, but generally, pairing two animals with genes that have been produced for generations specifically for a certain trait together is going to be the best bet at producing these.

These wild animals just happen to fall under the natural variation of the species. Very unique and beautiful animals for sure, especially knowing that a blue snake lives in trees on New Guinea! But it is just that, natural variation. Even when an animal that does display let's say a blue or mite phase look does come from the wild, we have to realize that the animal most likely has great amounts of genetic variation in it's lineage. It could produce a way wider gamut of offspring looks when paired in captivity.

Hope this makes sense!

[smy_749]

I guess the expression could be considered more complicated. In my mind, it just seems as straightforward as anything else though...If someone wanted a mite phase animal, then just look at the lineage or for the locality that displays that look.

And yes, some unique chondro phenotypes do come from the wild, however, linebred animals are more likely to reproduce these traits successfully. Because the animal has had it's genetics lined up for generations, on generations for these extreme phenotypes, when bred, our linebred morphs will begin to demonstrate themselves a little more reliably. Now, that's not to say that an animal from the wild couldn't reproduce itself just as well, but generally, pairing two animals with genes that have been produced for generations specifically for a certain trait together is going to be the best bet at producing these.

These wild animals just happen to fall under the natural variation of the species. Very unique and beautiful animals for sure, especially knowing that a blue snake lives in trees on New Guinea! But it is just that, natural variation. Even when an animal that does display let's say a blue or mite phase look does come from the wild, we have to realize that the animal most likely has great amounts of genetic variation in it's lineage. It could produce a way wider gamut of offspring looks when paired in captivity.

Hope this makes sense!


Yea good points, makes sense. Whether its complicated or not, its still cool ! haha

[Chu'Wuti]

I get the same error message, and I can't even get to finegtps.com, so it appears their website is down for some reason.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the pics--gorgeous snakes! and for the discussion on genetics, guys--I am always wanting to learn more.

[Aaron_S]

Good post and it makes sense Aaron, but doesn't each of the babies in a pastel x pastel clutch exhibit the pastel phenotype to some degree?...

No because pastel isn't polygenetic. It's an incomplete-dominant trait so it's inherited differently.

[Pareeeee]

Found another gallery. I'm just amazed at these...

My friends Green Tree Python collection - Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/fYbpI)

[smy_749]

Has anyone seen that first one before? I wasn't aware of that one...

http://i.imgur.com/EWFUaIh.jpg

[Amadeus]

Now that one is impressive.....

[warehouse13fan]

Very beautiful snakes.