regurge

[orochimaru]

my baby BRB out of no where regurged :no: He'd housed in a 36x18x18 exoterra viv that has the top seran wrapped to holds in humidity. His temps are about 78-80 on the hot side and about 70 degrees on the low side. His humidity is at 99% most of the time. He has 4 hides including a moss hide on the hot side. He eats F/T and has never had a problem. He has also had two sheds with me. His second shed I was on vacation though and my hubby's friend let his humid drop too low and he had an incomplete shed but I was able to take care of it quick with a nice warm soak soon as I got home. I have them on a automated misting system now tho. My other BRB has no issues. Other then the regurge he seems fine. Should I just wait out the 14 days and try him on some pinkies again before I go back up to fuzzies?

[RBD]

Orochimaru,

A regurg can be caused by a myriad of reasons all of which has their own circumstances/solutions. While I wouldn’t say to not worry about it, I wouldn’t freak out too much. From your description, you seem to be doing everything right. I would hold off on feeding for at least 2 weeks and they feed your BRB something much smaller then normal. I would do this for a little while then start to shorten the time between feedings until you are back on schedule. If everything works out and there is no more regurging then I would just say not to worry it was probable an anomaly. If your BRB regurges again, I think you have a serious problem and I would address this again.

John Wiseman
Rainbowsbydesign.com

[Aaron_S]

Orochimaru,

A regurg can be caused by a myriad of reasons all of which has their own circumstances/solutions. While I wouldn’t say to not worry about it, I wouldn’t freak out too much. From your description, you seem to be doing everything right. I would hold off on feeding for at least 2 weeks and they feed your BRB something much smaller then normal. I would do this for a little while then start to shorten the time between feedings until you are back on schedule. If everything works out and there is no more regurging then I would just say not to worry it was probable an anomaly. If your BRB regurges again, I think you have a serious problem and I would address this again.

John Wiseman
Rainbowsbydesign.com

I am confused.

You suggest some precautions to take if it's just "an anomaly". Then go on to say if it regurges again it's a serious problem.

What does a precaution by using longer intervals and smaller prey if there could just be an underlying issue? To me, it sounds the precautions could then be masking the true issue.

My point is that if it's going to regurge for a "serious issue" it'll regurge anything you feed it so why not just feed it normally? If it does it again there's an issue, if it doesn't, then no need to worry.


On to the snake at hand, did you handle it too soon after feeding it? Snakes don't regurge meals if they are too big so I can't see the size being the problem here. It just wouldn't swallow it. If it is a large meal you could have simply handled it too soon afterwards which would cause it to regurge.

I'd also lower the humidity. To my knowledge, they need higher humidity but not 100%.

[Snakesitter]

Orochimarus, a regurg can be a serious issue with rainbows. Some animals seem more prone to it than others -- for example, the early hypos were *plagued* by it -- but usually it is an isolated incident. Regardless, the best way to handle it is to treat it seriously because once a second regurg hits, then you have a much harder to treat problem.

One item to keep in mind is that, in addition to stress, any regurg costs the animal a bunch of digestive fluids and enzymes. Thus, you need to feed lightly until the animal's system can rebuild those resources and handle another larger meal. I typically recommend dropping your food size by one level, and lengthening your time between feeds by double. So, if you fed pups weekly, you would now offer fuzzies every other week. Try the reduced feeding plan for two feeds in a row -- so, four weeks' time. If all is well, then *either* increase the feeding size back to where you were before, *or* increase the feeding time -- not both. Feed twice more on this schedule. If all is still well, then go back to where you were before.

Note that regurgs can be triggered by stress, so I would avoid handling him the day before or for three days after feeding.

Good luck!

[Aaron_S]

One item to keep in mind is that, in addition to stress, any regurg costs the animal a bunch of digestive fluids and enzymes.

This is false about snake physiology.

Snakes produce digestive enzymes as long as something is in the stomach. They don't need to be built back up, they just keep being produced.

With that said, it doesn't hurt to lower the food item for the next meal but I wouldn't do it.

Usually regurges are issues with husbandry so always double check that too.

[Snakesitter]

Just repeating what I've heard from many experienced keepers. :-) Excellent point on checking the husbandry. End point, however, is to take it slow and cautious so as to avoid a repeat.

[Aaron_S]

Just repeating what I've heard from many experienced keepers....

That's all and well but the problem is that people like you and others who just say "oh they are experienced they MUST be right" instead of doing some research continue to pass on misinformation.

I'm not trying to be offensive but they're wrong because they never took the time to look into it further.

[orochimaru]

so friday is feeding day. should I go ahead and give him a meal albeit a smaller meal or should I wait out a full 10-14 days?

[Snakesitter]

Well, that was gently rendered. ;-)

Honestly, you are the first person I've heard contradict this theory. On your word, I will look into it more, but I'm not going to change my mind until that process is complete. And even if that underlying fact is wrong, the treatment plan -- take it slow to be sure -- remains valid, even if just from a stress-to-the-animal perspective.

[Snakesitter]

He was fed weekly, right? Wait for two weeks past his last meal.

[Aaron_S]

Well, that was gently rendered. ;-)

Honestly, you are the first person I've heard contradict this theory. On your word, I will look into it more, but I'm not going to change my mind until that process is complete. And even if that underlying fact is wrong, the treatment plan -- take it slow to be sure -- remains valid, even if just from a stress-to-the-animal perspective.

I would think you a fool if you didn't double check my findings. Please post them when you do :) One way or the other.

[RBD]

Aaron_S,

A BRB regurgitating once is not a big deal. Sometime these things happen. While you are correct in saying that enzymes are release when food items are in the stomach to digest the food and capture nutrients and thus is not “lost” there is also bacteria living in the gut that is essential to digest food properly. When the snake regurgitates the bacteria comes up with the food. It will take some time for the bacteria to build up in the gut again. That bacteria is “lost” and DOES need time to be replaces. The lack of bacteria will seriously slow down the digestive process causing the food to “spoil” (for lack of a better term) in the stomach of the snake, which will cause the snake to regurgitate again thus intensifying the problem. This is why someone should take these precautions when the BRB first regurgitates. The regurgitation may have been an anomaly and not caused by a serious husbandry and/or genetic problem but if the necessary precautions are not taken (meaning build that bacteria back up) then a serious problem could happen.

While friendly discussion is the reason we have these types forums I think that Cliff just misspoke when using the term “enzymes.” Not everyone has an advanced science/medical education. I do agree with correcting misleading information, it only helps us all to better understand. If you’re going to correct someone it’s helpful to give a fully detailed explanation. However, this is not really a per review scientific journal, I doubt if people even proof read their posts, I know I don’t ☺ The purpose of this thread was not really meant to be a discussion on the physiology of snake digestion it was intended to help see someone through a problem. With that in mind I think Cliff’s opinion on the subject while different than my own is valid, comes from years of experience and should be considered.

To address the last thing you asked me, supersaturated air, (humidity greater than 100%) is not necessary for BRB to thrive. I keep the relative humidity around 90% for babies and 80% for adults with a large enough water bowl for the animal to completely submerge in. I don’t like condensation to build up on the sides of the tubs because all the excess moisture causes other problems.

John Wiseman

[Snakesitter]

Thank you, John. That was a long day, and I should have double-checked my terminology.

[jarich]

Aaron_S,

A BRB regurgitating once is not a big deal. Sometime these things happen. While you are correct in saying that enzymes are release when food items are in the stomach to digest the food and capture nutrients and thus is not “lost” there is also bacteria living in the gut that is essential to digest food properly. When the snake regurgitates the bacteria comes up with the food. It will take some time for the bacteria to build up in the gut again. That bacteria is “lost” and DOES need time to be replaces. The lack of bacteria will seriously slow down the digestive process causing the food to “spoil” (for lack of a better term) in the stomach of the snake, which will cause the snake to regurgitate again thus intensifying the problem. This is why someone should take these precautions when the BRB first regurgitates. The regurgitation may have been an anomaly and not caused by a serious husbandry and/or genetic problem but if the necessary precautions are not taken (meaning build that bacteria back up) then a serious problem could happen.

While friendly discussion is the reason we have these types forums I think that Cliff just misspoke when using the term “enzymes.” Not everyone has an advanced science/medical education. I do agree with correcting misleading information, it only helps us all to better understand. If you’re going to correct someone it’s helpful to give a fully detailed explanation. However, this is not really a per review scientific journal, I doubt if people even proof read their posts, I know I don’t ☺ The purpose of this thread was not really meant to be a discussion on the physiology of snake digestion it was intended to help see someone through a problem. With that in mind I think Cliff’s opinion on the subject while different than my own is valid, comes from years of experience and should be considered.

To address the last thing you asked me, supersaturated air, (humidity greater than 100%) is not necessary for BRB to thrive. I keep the relative humidity around 90% for babies and 80% for adults with a large enough water bowl for the animal to completely submerge in. I don’t like condensation to build up on the sides of the tubs because all the excess moisture causes other problems.

John Wiseman

I'd have to disagree with you there, John; hopefully in the most friendly way, though. ;) The vast majority of digestion in snakes is via organ related function (acid and enzymatic process), with very little by bacterial process. It would hardly be considered enough to 'slow' the process of digestion so that food would spoil. The majority of gut flora that aid in digestion (or rather absorption would be a more apt description) are largely found in the large intestine anyway. As such, those shouldn't be affected at all by a regurgitation. Those limited flora found in the esophagus, stomach and small intestine deal more with the metabolism of by products and absorption of already digested food rather than any primary digestion itself, so its unlikely they would be responsible for the food spoiling and thus being regurgitated.

With repeated regurges, what is much more likely is that whatever issue caused the first regurge was simply not addressed. What I think is probably more common with repeated regurges would be one of two things. First, that a bacterial or viral infection has caused some form of gastritis, enteritis or other issue that hinders normal digestive function. Given the fact that the OP has such an incredibly high humidity and poor ventilation, I would guess that is the case here. This, like most common infections, should be remedied in a few days by the normal immune system of the snake, if its in good condition. Second, that the stomach acid from the first regurge has damaged the lining of the long esophagus of the snake and may cause a further regurge. That seems less likely for anything other than an immediate regurge, as once the food is past the esophagus there should be no effect. Either way, the problem is not the loss of bacteria or enzyme.

What may be more problematic is that for snakes, the specific dynamic action itself is very large. In other words, its metabolically hugely taxing since the upregulation of all those organ and enzymatic processes for digestion have to be expended PRIOR to the actual digestion of the prey. When a regurge happens, all that has been spent gearing up for digestion, but no food was absorbed in the end. Thats very hard on an snake's metabolism. It would be like running a marathon and then not eating for days afterward. If one can find the cause of the regurge, and its something simple like a husbandry issue (lack of proper temperatures, for instance), then once that is corrected, I think the snake should be fed again right away. It takes a couple days for the organs to recede again and the metabolism to slow down, so it is energetically less costly to feed again right away if the problem is resolved. However, if the cause is unknown (all husbandry is spot on) then I would say it might be best to increase the hot end of the gradient and wait for the snake's immune system to fight off the likely infection. Since reptiles cant give themselves a fever, the higher temperature will aid in the immune system's attempts to clear the infection.

[Snakesitter]

Jarich, in general this may be wonderful and spot on advice...but Brazilians do *not* cope well with high temps, and do require the high humidity and limited ventilation several folks have mentioned.

Good explanation on the mechanics of digestion, though!

[marvelfreak]

All i know is every time my male BRB regurgitated it was because of one of two reasons. Food to big or temps were off.

I have had mine do it when it got super hot out side and the temp in my old snake room was over 90 degrees. I had him do it when i move the snake room to the basement and his heat pad went out in the middle of winter and is cage temp was only 73 degrees. This is why temps should be checked on all cages at least 3 times a week to catch this problems as soon as they arise.
And last he did it when i first tried him on large rats. So i waited a few months and tried again. Second time he did just fine as has been eating large now for just under a year.

So i would check or temps and double check them. My guess is it something to do with them.

[jarich]

Jarich, in general this may be wonderful and spot on advice...but Brazilians do *not* cope well with high temps, and do require the high humidity and limited ventilation several folks have mentioned.

Good explanation on the mechanics of digestion, though!

Sorry, I think I might have communicated that poorly. When I mentioned raising the higher end of the gradient I should've been more specific. The cool end should stay the same and just add the option of a slightly higher hot end, as in 2-3 degrees, much like a fever in a mammal only raises a body temperature a few degrees. That way the snake has the choice to either stay cool or use the extra heat if its likely there is an infection. Again, this would only be after husbandry issues were ruled out.

As for the high humidity, you know much better than I, Cliff. It just seemed like a continuous 99% humidity was not ideal, and might promote heavy bacterial growth.

[Snakesitter]

Ah, I see. In that case the temp move sounds very reasonable.

99% is possibly a tad enthusiastic, but these snakes do love their moisture. The general rule is 80%+ for adults and 90%+ for babies, with no upper limit. Even then, they'll often spend hours to days soaking.

Thank you for the clarification!