Bad shed continued

[Deva]

At the risk of further condemnation and/or ridicule, I have re-opened my thread on my poor milk snake, Ci-Ci. Perhaps other beginner snake keepers (like myself) can learn something from my experience.

Far from disregarding the advice so far given on this forum, I have taken my snake to the vet today. The vet told me her condition is "guarded". The vet is going to keep her there until Wednesday of this week and do various treatments on her - to the tune of at least $50 a day.

The vet did not seem to think that moving the snake to the larger terrarium with the screen top was the cause of the damage. She did not know for sure what it was - and this is a place that specializes in birds and reptiles- but thought it might be some kind of fungus infection in the skin. She said injections of an anti-fungal medication would be given, and probably have to be repeated even after I get her home. Also my snake will be soaked in some different solution with nutrients.

So I will have to learn how to give a snake an injection, assuming she lives until Wednesday.

The vet also questioned the quality of the food the snake had been getting and I told her the pet store where I got the snake has frozen mice in the freezer. She thought maybe it would be good if I switched the source.

I am 100% sure Ci-Ci would not accept food in the condition she is in presently.

Some of the time I think she just was guessing - but I don't know. What it may come down to is a biopsy of the skin to find out exactly what it is that is making it impossible for the snake to shed. I was afraid at this point to ask what that would cost. I am not independently wealthy.

Anyway, I will let you know what happens.

[KORBIN5895]

Do not let that vet start injecting stuff until tests have been done! That vet doesn't seem like they know what they're doing.

Secondly I have a lot of respect for you because of how you are handling this. I am going to check your other thread and see if I can give some more advice but can you post pics of your snake?

[Deva]

Thanks for the compliments Korbin. No pictures available though.

She looks really bad. I was thinking going in that nothing short of some kind of injections or some drastic action was necessary. Maybe its guesswork, I will find out in a few days. Perhaps I will insist on the biopsy being done - I don't know anything about this - CiCi is the only reptile I have ever owned.

[KORBIN5895]

I can't see how an injection is going to help a topical fungus.

Could you recap what exactly you tried? I believe it does hinge on the screen top. They just suck the humidity out when paired with a heat lamp.

[Deva]

I didn't really have a "heat lamp" on. It was only a 60watt night light type of bulb. The heating pad under was the only other source of heat. If anything maybe the snake was too cold. I just don't know. I suppose a beginner in snake keeping should do a lot of research before moving a snake from one enclosure to another.

It just happened that one day I saw Ci-Ci all curled up in her water dish. That was the first unusual behavior I saw. At that point, she still looked normal.

[slowhite03]

I disagree with the "screen top" sucking humidity. You live in flordia, the humidity should be just fine. I live in california and keep my snakes in a "screen top" and there humidity is where it should be 40-60%. Now I'm not going to say a basking light is going to dry some humidity out but if it was low your snake will naturally soak or move to the cool side

[Deva]

I also mention that when I saw Ci-Ci in the water dish, I put another hide in the terrarium, with moist sphagnum moss. I don't think it was ever used, except maybe once, one morning I saw some of the moss outside the hide, indicating the snake went in at least once.

So, I had a ZooMed heating pad on the bottom and a hide above it, and another hide on the other side of the terrarium.

Also, I tried soaking Ci-Ci - in fact I did it overnight. However, there was nothing but maybe a temporary improvement. Water is not the answer here.

[sweatshirt]

Honestly... I have a 50 or 60 watt (I forget which) for my snake's screen top and it DOES suck out humidity. She just shed a few days ago, and while she was I covered 3/4 of the screen and turned off the lamp and the humidity easily stayed at 70-80% and she had a perfect shed. Now that it's back on it goes to around 41% even after misting (yes, it's still covered as well), so I'm dumping it. I live in FL too.

[MDT]

I can't see how an injection is going to help a topical fungus.

Could you recap what exactly you tried? I believe it does hinge on the screen top. They just suck the humidity out when paired with a heat lamp.

We use injectable or oral antifungals in human medicine pretty routinely. If the area is small enough or the patient not seriously ill, then topical stuff is often enough (jock itch). If seriously ill (ICU type) then IV diflucan or the like would be employed.

Now...having said that...I agree w Korbin that testing (culture/sensitivity, etc) prob should be done. And....my disclaimer, I ain't no vet....

[Deva]

MDT: Well, that's it, I'm no vet either. If someone is a DMV and has a practice dedicated to birds/exotic pets (there is none in this area dedicated to only reptiles)then as a layman I must defer to their judgment after an examination of the animal..

[MDT]

MDT: Well, that's it, I'm no vet either. If someone is a DMV and has a practice dedicated to birds/exotic pets (there is none in this area dedicated to only reptiles)then as a layman I must defer to their judgment after an examination of the animal..


Yep...I get it. And again, this may be a "no brainer" for the vet. I will often treat a patient w a certain antibiotic (say for a skin abscess) that will cover for MRSA without a culture because I know the incidence for MRSA is fairly high. It may only be MSSA, but I have taken into consideration the possibility of the other.

I hope everything works out for your snake :)

[KORBIN5895]

Just a reminder that AC removes humidity.

@mdt

I didn't know that at all.

@Deva

Without testing your vet is totally guessing.

[Deva]

The snake was in the lower floor of the house. Upstairs, I am having a problem with mold. Despite this, it could be low humidity? I don't know, just wondering..

Please bear in mind - I don't have an actual measure of the humidity, and the snake had a water dish and a humid hide.

Not ruling out low humidity as a cause, I don't know.

As far as the biopsy goes, I am going to let the vet do her injections until Wed. If I go there and see no improvement, I am going to insist on the biopsy- assuming, of course, the animal is still alive. This is a small snake- about 2 feet long. I don't really know how much medical intervention it can take in any case. Also, believe it or not, there are financial considerations.

[KORBIN5895]

The snake was in the lower floor of the house. Upstairs, I am having a problem with mold. Despite this, it could be low humidity? I don't know, just wondering..

Please bear in mind - I don't have an actual measure of the humidity, and the snake had a water dish and a humid hide.

Not ruling out low humidity as a cause, I don't know.

As far as the biopsy goes, I am going to let the vet do her injections until Wed. If I go there and see no improvement, I am going to insist on the biopsy- assuming, of course, the animal is still alive. This is a small snake- about 2 feet long. I don't really know how much medical intervention it can take in any case. Also, believe it or not, there are financial considerations.

I'm more worried she is treating it for something it doesn't have and therefore wasting your money. Anyway Good luck and kudos for taking it to the vet. that is refreshing.

[Deva]

Came home today with Ci-Ci after she had been five days at the vets. Cheap it was not. Anyway, she does seem to be a bit better. Skin still looks extremely dry but she is not quite as stiff. She is drinking and pooping and moving more. So maybe there is hope after all.

My hope is to get her to eat over the long weekend.

[KORBIN5895]

Did the vet say what was wrong?

[Deva]

She thought it was some kind of fungal infection but I don't think she really knows, is my impression.

The skin biopsy was the only way she could tell for sure. I elected not to proceed with that as it requires anesthesia and I don't know if the snake would ever be the same afterward. Maybe a wrong decision and I may still have to do it anyway, I don't know. Main point in all this is I really don't know that much about snakes to be called on to make a decision like that. This has been a rough week.

I am going to be doing soaks and some other treatment as advised.

She advised me to not use the repti-bark as I had been. She said shredded paper product is better. At the moment I just have paper towels on the bottom. That is a bit sad as this snake likes to burrow. I have access to plenty of shredded paper from work, but it has ink on it from printouts and I don't know if it should be used.

I also believe this vet did consult with another reptile vet.

[Chu'Wuti]

For now, I would recommend you stick with paper toweling. The nice thing about using plain white paper toweling is that any parasites that drop off onto it are highly visible, so paper toweling could potentially help you identify the problem.

If your workplace uses soy-based ink, the shredded paper is probably fine in the future, but it wouldn't be my top choice for substrate.

For now, see if you can get the snake to eat. You might try smaller-than-normal prey size, perhaps even pinkies, to get her appetite and digestive system jump-started.

Good luck.

[Deva]

yes, I am sticking with paper toweling for the time being. I don't know about the ink. I just put a pinkie in with her, no reaction yet.

[slowhite03]

I would put it over night, this way he's more likely to come out and eat it

[Chu'Wuti]

I would put it over night, this way he's more likely to come out and eat it

That's a good suggestion as long as the prey item is F/T or prekilled. Many of my colubrids won't eat immediately but will eat if I leave a F/T prey item in with them. I wouldn't ever try this with a live meal, as the snake could easily end up being the prey, receiving injuries that could be scarring at the least and life-threatening at the worst.

[Deva]

My snake has always eaten frozen/thawed. She did not eat last night - I am not surprised, but will try again in a couple days. I am going back to pinkies rather than fuzzies, which is what she had been eating.

It is hard to convey to you guys how badly this snake has gone down in the last two months. Prior to that, she was so fast she almost got away from me when I was trying to do maintenance - to the point where now, it seems she can barely move. Her whole body is still very stiff, as if she was painted with a shellac or something hard. There are flakes of skin peeling off all over - except they don't exactly come off. She sometimes sits with her mouth slightly open as well. I asked the vet about this, and she said the mouth was swollen. There is no other sign of a problem with the mouth, to look at it, it is normal, no foaming or anything like that. In fact the only part of her that looks normal is her head, which is shiny black and her eyes also look good.

She has been on a course of anti-fungal and antibiotics for a week. The skin appears almost cracked in places - hence the antibiotic - and I give her a warm bath in water and wind her up in a cloth soaked with betadine once a day, as per the vet's instructions.

[Deva]

As a wind up to this story, my little snake, Ci-Ci, passed away Wednesday, July 31.

RIP Ci-Ci, cause of death unknown, but no more snakes for me:

http://i.imgur.com/KMepz.jpg

[sweatshirt]

I'm really sorry to hear :( R.I.P.

[marvelfreak]

Sorry to hear Ci-Ci didn't make it.