Hoping for some advice and perspectives

[Ryodraco]

Let me start by explaining where I am coming from. I've always loved reptiles, but long lacked the knowledge and resources to care for them. Not so much these days.

I feel like I've learned a lot about reptile keeping in the last year. My kingsnake is happy (at least judging by how often she is out and about instead of hiding or burrowing), my checkered garter snakes almost never miss a meal and have grown wonderfully (only one instance of a retained tail shed, which was easily removed), and while my new steppe runner lizard isn't used to me yet, it is gobbling down phoenix worms with gusto.

I feel like I am ready to get something bigger and more unusual. Those familiar with my postings may recall I am considering a bullsnake, however my steppe runner has reinvigorated my interest in lizards.

I must admit I have always considered varanids among my favorite animals. Their powerful, graceful forms, intelligence (for a reptile), high activity level (for a reptile). just everything about them is amazing to me. To own one has long been a dream. A dream I thought I was ready to pursue.

Then came the daunting part, the revelation that even smaller varanids like ackies require at least a foot of substrate. I am not against this, in fact I like the idea of a substrate I would likely never have to fully clean out. No, the bad part is finding out that no commercial enclosure can properly house a monitor.

I have zero carpentry skills, and even if I tried I wouldn't trust anything I built. I am well prepared to dole out the extra money to have a custom cage built, but even then I run into problems. That is say I do get a designer to make one with adequate substrate space, what assurance do I have that it will be strong enough to hold the heavy soil? Then there is the issue of the screen tops which I hear are bad for monitors.

The ideal would be to get a enclosure from someone with experience in varanids. Searches for custom monitor enclosures online haven't yielded anything (lots of nice custom reptiles enclosures on craigslist, but none suited to monitors), yet surely if so many people keep ackies then there must be a lot of enclosures out there right? What do keepers do with extra enclosures if they get out of the hobby, have to downsize their collection, or simply have to make room for newer enclosures?

I'd be willing to travel a few hundred miles if need be (I live in north central Texas) and transport a enclosure myself if one was available and it could fit in a minivan. Ideally I'd want an enclosure that is five feet long by three feet wide or less to fit in the space I have available.

So basically my questions are on two things:

1. Is it worthwhile to keep looking for a used monitor enclosure or for someone to build me one, and if so where should I look? Is not being able/willing to build one myself proof that I shouldn't own a monitor at all?

2. If a monitor isn't for me then are there any lizards out there (beyond the classic bearded dragons, who simply don't appeal to me as much as monitors) that are similarly rewarding to keep and day active but don't require deep substrate, would be okay with screen tops etc? Or should I simply go back to my old plan of getting a bullsnake?

Thanks for listening.

[Amadeus]

Um just tell the person who is building it that it needs to hold a foot or more of damp dirt and make sure it's strong.

What monitor are you planning on getting? (I do know most of the basics as I have been researching ackie monitors for about a month now.)

[Grendel]

Tegus are rewarding, they still need a big enclosure but you dont need that much substrate,

[Lankyrob]

Approach a local carpenter, explain that restrictions, explain that you will recommend him to everyone online if the cage is awesome and that he will get a lot of work building reptile enclosures, you never know.........

[Ryodraco]

Um just tell the person who is building it that it needs to hold a foot or more of damp dirt and make sure it's strong.
What about the screen top? Would it be all right to ask them to cover say 3 quarters of it with wood and leave the area where the light would go as a screen? That would save the trouble of figuring out how to ask them to design a way to put the light inside the enclosure.

What monitor are you planning on getting? (I do know most of the basics as I have been researching ackie monitors for about a month now.)
Ackies seem best, not too big, not too small, fairly easy to feed (I've read of seemingly capable people giving them crickets/roaches with a mouse added once a week or so). Albeit I am open to other suggestions.

On the note of feeding, would regular helpings of phoenix worms keep me from having to worry about dusting the other insects? Phoenix worms probably aren't meaty enough to be the main food but as a supplement it seems like they could take care of calcium needs.

Tegus are rewarding, they still need a big enclosure but you dont need that much substrate,
That's the thing, I don't think I have room to keep a three or four foot tegu happy. It seems like feeding them the varied diet of meats and greens could be complicated too (I'm anal about these things and would worry if the percentages were off).

[Amadeus]

What about the screen top? Would it be all right to ask them to cover say 3 quarters of it with wood and leave the area where the light would go as a screen? That would save the trouble of figuring out how to ask them to design a way to put the light inside the enclosure.


Ackies seem best, not too big, not too small, fairly easy to feed (I've read of seemingly capable people giving them crickets/roaches with a mouse added once a week or so). Albeit I am open to other suggestions.

On the note of feeding, would regular helpings of phoenix worms keep me from having to worry about dusting the other insects? Phoenix worms probably aren't meaty enough to be the main food but as a supplement it seems like they could take care of calcium needs.


That's the thing, I don't think I have room to keep a three or four foot tegu happy. It seems like feeding them the varied diet of meats and greens could be complicated too (I'm anal about these things and would worry if the percentages were off).

How tall is your cage gonna be? For the screen just tell him the diameter of your dome at its widest point. Good to go.

[jarich]

Amadeus, dude, Im not trying to be mean, but you really need to think more before commenting about stuff you dont know anything about. If its just in the discussion topics, its not such a big deal, but when you start offering up advice on animals, you need to know what youre talking about before giving advice to others.

Ryodraco, you dont want screen anywhere, as you will lose all your humidity that way and cause low level dehydration over time. No screen.

Its a very simple build, so any day labourer from a construction site would be able to do this for you. Put up an ad on CL or just ask around for anyone you know who knows someone in construction. It wouldnt take more than a couple hours for them to do this if they have the right tools. You could just show him Wayne's (infernalis) build from his website as a guide, and adapt it to give him the measurements you spoke of that fit in your house. Her it is:

New Savannah Monitor enclosure (http://www.chompersite.com/cage.htm)

Its just a box basically, with a window mounted in the front, and 2x4s at least every 18 inches in the bottom to support the weight of the dirt.

Ask him to drill holes in the top large enough for a electric cord end to go through so that you can mount the lights on the inside of the top of the enclosure and run the cords out. When the person is done making you the box, just paint the inside with a couple layers of marine epoxy and youre ready to go.

If you wanted an even simpler design, since they are only little ackies, then you could follow this thread design too.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/98068-ackie-enclosure-build.html

That is literally just a cheap wooden box on top of a pre made tub to hold the dirt. That shouldnt cost you more than a couple hundred bucks to get made for you if you buy the materials. Id recommend making the front glass an actual premade window as they are sealed and insulated, as opposed to pieces of glass in tracking. Though its a little more money, the pre made window is a much better and easier option.

Regarding the feeding, get the animal first and then we can talk about the diet. ;)

[smy_749]

Amadeus, dude, Im not trying to be mean, but you really need to think more before commenting about stuff you dont know anything about. If its just in the discussion topics, its not such a big deal, but when you start offering up advice on animals, you need to know what youre talking about before giving advice to others.

Ryodraco, you dont want screen anywhere, as you will lose all your humidity that way and cause low level dehydration over time. No screen.

Its a very simple build, so any day labourer from a construction site would be able to do this for you. Put up an ad on CL or just ask around for anyone you know who knows someone in construction. It wouldnt take more than a couple hours for them to do this if they have the right tools. You could just show him Wayne's (infernalis) build from his website as a guide, and adapt it to give him the measurements you spoke of that fit in your house. Her it is:

New Savannah Monitor enclosure (http://www.chompersite.com/cage.htm)

Its just a box basically, with a window mounted in the front, and 2x4s at least every 18 inches in the bottom to support the weight of the dirt.

Ask him to drill holes in the top large enough for a electric cord end to go through so that you can mount the lights on the inside of the top of the enclosure and run the cords out. When the person is done making you the box, just paint the inside with a couple layers of marine epoxy and youre ready to go.

If you wanted an even simpler design, since they are only little ackies, then you could follow this thread design too.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/98068-ackie-enclosure-build.html

That is literally just a cheap wooden box on top of a pre made tub to hold the dirt. That shouldnt cost you more than a couple hundred bucks to get made for you if you buy the materials. Id recommend making the front glass an actual premade window as they are sealed and insulated, as opposed to pieces of glass in tracking. Though its a little more money, the pre made window is a much better and easier option.

Regarding the feeding, get the animal first and then we can talk about the diet. ;)


Thats not 100% true, depending on if you have live plants that aren't getting destroyed, you live in a humid area, and the dome is a tight fit. I have a setup with screen and its not even a tough fit and I never see it below 70% because the light doesn't need to reach more than 85. The real problem is getting a high enough basking spot from that far away without a crazy wattage bulb frying the air.

The moral here : If you did have a few plants/or lived in a humid area, so long as you dangle the low wattage bulbs close enough to the basking spot, you could probably do just fine with a SMALL ventilation hole somewhere.

[jarich]

What happens with a dome light on top of a screen top is that the light acts like a small fan. Youll notice there are holes around the top of the dome. Those are to allow the heat to escape so that the wiring inside the top doesnt melt. What that also means is that this escaping heat draws air up from inside the enclosure. (Blow a little flour over the top of the dome and see what happens). What that means is that if you have a high wattage light (which you would absolutely have to have for a light high up to get to the proper temps of a monitor basking spot, which you already mentioned) then you will not only be super heating all the air in between the light on top and the substrate below (thus drying it out), but that you will also be sucking air out of the enclosure through the top constantly. The relative humidity of where you live will have little effect as its all about the artificial low humidity your creating with the high wattage bulb.

I didnt say this off the top of my head, Ive actually tried. I live in a place with incredibly high humidity in the summer. I have had multiple enclosures where I tried to make it work. It doesnt. The lights need to be housed within the enclosure and the light needs to be lower wattage and close to the substrate. If not, you will always have a hard time keeping your humidity levels up and your monitor will suffer as a result.

[smy_749]

What happens with a dome light on top of a screen top is that the light acts like a small fan. Youll notice there are holes around the top of the dome. Those are to allow the heat to escape so that the wiring inside the top doesnt melt. What that also means is that this escaping heat draws air up from inside the enclosure. (Blow a little flour over the top of the dome and see what happens). What that means is that if you have a high wattage light (which you would absolutely have to have for a light high up to get to the proper temps of a monitor basking spot, which you already mentioned) then you will not only be super heating all the air in between the light on top and the substrate below (thus drying it out), but that you will also be sucking air out of the enclosure through the top constantly. The relative humidity of where you live will have little effect as its all about the artificial low humidity your creating with the high wattage bulb.

I didnt say this off the top of my head, Ive actually tried. I live in a place with incredibly high humidity in the summer. I have had multiple enclosures where I tried to make it work. It doesnt. The lights need to be housed within the enclosure and the light needs to be lower wattage and close to the substrate. If not, you will always have a hard time keeping your humidity levels up and your monitor will suffer as a result.

Hmmm good point. I guess Its just too minute to notice on my 60 watt tub setup or the live plants are keeping things balanced. Where do you live? Surely it can't be more humid than new england summer (I just checked, its been between 87 and 91 % humidity for the past week or so in my town)

[jarich]

The plants will definitely help, and the fact that you have a lower wattage lamp does as well.

I live just west of you man, NYC.

[smy_749]

The plants will definitely help, and the fact that you have a lower wattage lamp does as well.

I live just west of you man, NYC.

Ah cool. Going to White plains in 2 weeks? I'm actually having trouble keeping humidity down. I can't get the recommended 'drop' in humidity for my GTP.

[jarich]

Not sure about White Plains yet, its possible though. You driving?

As for the GTP, wouldnt worry about it. They can handle the humidity just fine. Every year I have the same thing, my enclosure stays around 93%. Never had a problem. Its seasonal, which they are adapted to anyway. As long as your temperature is good, it really shouldnt be any issue.

[smy_749]

Not sure about White Plains yet, its possible though. You driving?

As for the GTP, wouldnt worry about it. They can handle the humidity just fine. Every year I have the same thing, my enclosure stays around 93%. Never had a problem. Its seasonal, which they are adapted to anyway. As long as your temperature is good, it really shouldnt be any issue.

Temps are good, switched to a horizontally oriented tub which is working alot better IMO. Only weird thing I notice is he roams on the floor of the tub almost every night now. Always back on his perches by morning though. And I'm not 100% sure, but its very likely that I'll be going there. Its about 2 hours for me.

[Ryodraco]

Its a very simple build, so any day labourer from a construction site would be able to do this for you. Put up an ad on CL or just ask around for anyone you know who knows someone in construction. It wouldnt take more than a couple hours for them to do this if they have the right tools. You could just show him Wayne's (infernalis) build from his website as a guide, and adapt it to give him the measurements you spoke of that fit in your house. Her it is:

New Savannah Monitor enclosure (http://www.chompersite.com/cage.htm)

Its just a box basically, with a window mounted in the front, and 2x4s at least every 18 inches in the bottom to support the weight of the dirt.

Ask him to drill holes in the top large enough for a electric cord end to go through so that you can mount the lights on the inside of the top of the enclosure and run the cords out. When the person is done making you the box, just paint the inside with a couple layers of marine epoxy and youre ready to go.

If you wanted an even simpler design, since they are only little ackies, then you could follow this thread design too.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/98068-ackie-enclosure-build.html

That is literally just a cheap wooden box on top of a pre made tub to hold the dirt. That shouldnt cost you more than a couple hundred bucks to get made for you if you buy the materials. Id recommend making the front glass an actual premade window as they are sealed and insulated, as opposed to pieces of glass in tracking. Though its a little more money, the pre made window is a much better and easier option.
It may seem simple to you but to me it is still very intimidating. It's why I was really hoping to find a pre-built used one.:(

<><><>

Am I right in thinking an Exo Terra Solar Glo of a 100 watts could provide all the heating and lighting needs? Or is it one of those mercury vapor bulbs that I hear bad things about?

And how does one keep the animals from touching the lights if they are inside the cage? That Savannah monitor build has its lights looking like the animals could touch them if they jumped (which some monitors at least can do).

[nepoez]

jarich is absolutely right. I remember telling him about this a while back. Maybe this is why he went and tested it out and found out I was right about the drawing of the air!

What happens with a dome light on top of a screen top is that the light acts like a small fan. Youll notice there are holes around the top of the dome. Those are to allow the heat to escape so that the wiring inside the top doesnt melt. What that also means is that this escaping heat draws air up from inside the enclosure. (Blow a little flour over the top of the dome and see what happens). What that means is that if you have a high wattage light (which you would absolutely have to have for a light high up to get to the proper temps of a monitor basking spot, which you already mentioned) then you will not only be super heating all the air in between the light on top and the substrate below (thus drying it out), but that you will also be sucking air out of the enclosure through the top constantly. The relative humidity of where you live will have little effect as its all about the artificial low humidity your creating with the high wattage bulb.

I didnt say this off the top of my head, Ive actually tried. I live in a place with incredibly high humidity in the summer. I have had multiple enclosures where I tried to make it work. It doesnt. The lights need to be housed within the enclosure and the light needs to be lower wattage and close to the substrate. If not, you will always have a hard time keeping your humidity levels up and your monitor will suffer as a result.

[infernalis]

Look up convection. ;)

[Ryodraco]

*please note I am not ignoring the posts about how to build enclosures, I replied to them on the previous page*

So no ideas at all as to how I could locate used ackie enclosures? Do the many ackie owners just never get rid of their enclosures?:confused:

On another note, what are the chances of a commercial company taking on the task of producing a monitor lizard suited enclosure in the next few years?

[smy_749]

*please note I am not ignoring the posts about how to build enclosures, I replied to them on the previous page*

1.) So no ideas at all as to how I could locate used ackie enclosures? Do the many ackie owners just never get rid of their enclosures?:confused:

On another note, what are the chances of a commercial company taking on the task of producing a monitor lizard suited enclosure in the next few years?


1. Craigslist and Faunaclassifieds, though its rare you find anything because of number 2.

2. Alot of people use cattle troughs for ackies, which you can buy at tractor supply. Also with home made enclosures, most of the time I see them for high prices because they would like to get the materials $$ they put into it back, but the enclosures do NOT look worth what the asking prices are.

3. The only thing that caging companies are lacking for monitor husbandry and I haven't seen any available, are areas for very deep substrate. Companys like exo-terra have maybe a 5 inch substrate bed in their cages, but I don't see anyone developing something with more than a foot or close to it + the actual enclosure size a moni needs.

[KORBIN5895]

Are you actually going to commit yourself to this pet?

[Chu'Wuti]

If you are genuinely interested in it, I personally believe that it's a good idea to learn ALL its husbandry needs before getting it, including diet and lifespan, because you need to consider whether you are prepared to take care of it the way it needs to be cared for for its best health and a long life.

[jarich]

It may seem simple to you but to me it is still very intimidating. It's why I was really hoping to find a pre-built used one.:(

<><><>

Am I right in thinking an Exo Terra Solar Glo of a 100 watts could provide all the heating and lighting needs? Or is it one of those mercury vapor bulbs that I hear bad things about?

And how does one keep the animals from touching the lights if they are inside the cage? That Savannah monitor build has its lights looking like the animals could touch them if they jumped (which some monitors at least can do).

Sorry, I didnt mean to say simple to you personally, I meant it would be simple for any construction worker, carpenter, etc.

As for the lighting, its usually best to separate the heat from the UV with monitors. You want the basking lights relatively lower wattage so they dont dry out the air and enclosure as much. Id recommend getting just a couple/few halogen flood lights for the basking area and then a separate UV fluorescent light. Exo terra is generally seen as one of the crappy brands either way. If you were going for an MVB Id recommend MegaRay or at the very least Zoomed.

As for the monitors touching them, yes they can. That is why you will notice that all of us have taken off the hoods for the fixtures and just leave the light hanging by the cord. The slick glass surface of the bulb gives the monitor nothing to hold onto, so if it reaches up to grab on, the light swings away and the monitor slides right off.

jarich is absolutely right. I remember telling him about this a while back. Maybe this is why he went and tested it out and found out I was right about the drawing of the air!

Im not sure, but it seems like you are confusing me with someone else Nepoez. This is basic physics, so didnt really require me testing it out. However, my experience comes from years ago rather than anything recently.

[Ryodraco]

Are you actually going to commit yourself to this pet?
If I actually get one of course, albeit it seems increasingly that a bullsnake may be a better way to go... I checked faunaclassifieds ads going back this whole year, found two monitor enclosures, both too large for the space I have available (and too far away to drive to).

[KORBIN5895]

If I actually get one of course, albeit it seems increasingly that a bullsnake may be a better way to go... I checked faunaclassifieds ads going back this whole year, found two monitor enclosures, both too large for the space I have available (and too far away to drive to).

I will hold you to that.

[Ryodraco]

So, what do you think of this guy's work?

CUSTOM REPTILE CAGE (http://dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/for/3862161985.html)

Obviously the cage pictured is not suitable, but assuming I can get him to make one comparable with the ones linked on this topic (i.e. lights mounted inside, good substrate depth), would it be good? Mainly I am concerned about the Polycarbonate Sheet as a glass substitute and wonder if I should ask for just glass. That is I have heard glass is most recommended because plexiglass scratches too easily with monitors, and I don't know how this polycarbonate compares to either.

The advantage with this person is that Grand Prairie is within driving distance for me.

[jarich]

It looks like he knows what he is doing enough to make you an enclosure, but it also looks like he is probably going to charge you quite a bit for it. If that little thing goes for $2000 then your big monitor cage is going to cost you an arm and a leg.

[murrindindi]

So, what do you think of this guy's work?

CUSTOM REPTILE CAGE (http://dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/for/3862161985.html)

Obviously the cage pictured is not suitable, but assuming I can get him to make one comparable with the ones linked on this topic (i.e. lights mounted inside, good substrate depth), would it be good? Mainly I am concerned about the Polycarbonate Sheet as a glass substitute and wonder if I should ask for just glass. That is I have heard glass is most recommended because plexiglass scratches too easily with monitors, and I don't know how this polycarbonate compares to either.

The advantage with this person is that Grand Prairie is within driving distance for me.



Hi, the enclosure looks very nice, personally I wouldn`t pay $2,000+ for one like that because it`s mainly for "show" (expensive wood and bark pieces, etc) .
The easiest way forward in my opinion would be to buy a metal feeding trough. They come in a variety of sizes, including I believe 4 x 2 x 2 feet (LWH), then simply build a wooden box with a glass front to fit on top out of 3/4 inch thick plywood (sealed with several coats of water based polyurethane varnish).
In other words, the trough holds the substrate the top is space for the monitor to explore. The top part only needs to be approx 12inches high, then fix it to the metal base (so it has a solid back, sides and top but no bottom apart from a frame to allow it to be fixed firmly to the base). You could then put 18inches depth of substrate in the trough which actually gives the animal 18inches of "air space" above ground. Hopefully that makes sense?

[Ryodraco]

Hi, the enclosure looks very nice, personally I wouldn`t pay $2,000+ for one like that because it`s mainly for "show" (expensive wood and bark pieces, etc) .
The easiest way forward in my opinion would be to buy a metal feeding trough. They come in a variety of sizes, including I believe 4 x 2 x 2 feet (LWH), then simply build a wooden box with a glass front to fit on top out of 3/4 inch thick plywood (sealed with several coats of water based polyurethane varnish).
In other words, the trough holds the substrate the top is space for the monitor to explore. The top part only needs to be approx 12inches high, then fix it to the metal base (so it has a solid back, sides and top but no bottom apart from a frame to allow it to be fixed firmly to the base). You could then put 18inches depth of substrate in the trough which actually gives the animal 18inches of "air space" above ground. Hopefully that makes sense?
I'd rather not pay 2000+ either, and hopefully won't, but as I explained in the first post being unable to build the enclosure myself has been the biggest hurdle to me owning a monitor.

[franks]

I think your best bet would be to hire a carpenter on a Saturday, and have him build it for you. You need a big plywood box that any carpenter would be able to build for you. Once you get the box, you can go all out or bare bones, or anything in between to finish it.

[murrindindi]

I'd rather not pay 2000+ either, and hopefully won't, but as I explained in the first post being unable to build the enclosure myself has been the biggest hurdle to me owning a monitor.


The idea was to have someone make you the top part (plywood) then simply fix it to the metal trough, this way I think it will be a fraction of the cost of the example you showed, yet work every bit as well.
You are basically asking someone to put together a wooden box with a (sliding?) plate glass front which for anyone with a little carpentry skill should be a simple (and cheap) task, then fix it to the top of the trough. It could actually be fixed together with metal angle brackets which simply screw on the surface of the wood at the corners (EASY).
If I lived a little closer I`d come and do it for you myself (free of charge)! :)

[jarich]

Your in the Dallas area I take it from the CL post you had there. If thats the case look up stuff like this guy:

***HANDYMAN SERVICE*** (http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/sks/3863317377.html)

Anybody like that will have the basic tools they need as long as you supply them with the materials and give them a basic outline of what you want done. They also will probably just charge you by the hour, and something like the plans above shouldnt take more than a few hours.

[Ryodraco]

I think your best bet would be to hire a carpenter on a Saturday, and have him build it for you. You need a big plywood box that any carpenter would be able to build for you. Once you get the box, you can go all out or bare bones, or anything in between to finish it.
Wouldn't setting it up so lights can be mounted inside be a bit more complicated than that?

<><><>

Please understand I've never done anything like this before, and while I appreciate the kind responses and your explanations sound simple I am still left with a million questions and concerns that make me wish so much I could find a used enclosure.