Study shows snake's ability to learn.

[Pareeeee]

I know it's an old article, but an interesting read. I really wish more universities did intelligence trials on snakes. I think I would read each one.

What do you guys think of the article?
Snakes Show Surprising Capacity for Learning (http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/bcs/snake.htm)
(and please, PLEASE don't change the subject to the age-old "do snakes have emotions" argument, this topic is about snake memory/learning capability)

[pdomensis]

Cool. I hadn't realized they were so visual. I want to see a picture of the snakes with their tinfoil hats!

[bcr229]

This would also explain why hook training is effective with snakes that have a strong prey drive. They quickly learn that hook = no food, so they chill out.

[Amadeus]

I am not convinced...

[Valvaren]

I had to clean one of my boas who had defecated WHILE food was dethawing. After 10 mins of fending him off with a hide from trying to eat me I finally decided I had to get him out whether I got bit or not. As soon as I got my hand on him to scoop him up he was out of feeding mode. Head went down and his whole posture changed and he came out fine. I don't think people give them enough credit. He went on to eat fine for me after I put him back.

Now I wouldn't try it with a full grown boa (hes 2 years old) but I do know that he knows the difference between when its food and when its coming out of this enclosure time. Which can be tied with what Bcr229 said about hooking.

[Zoo Nanny]

Pareeeee This site is not related to snake research but you may find the articles interesting. They have a number of different studies going on with assorted lizards and amphibians.

Hot off the press! ?Learning outdoors: male lizards show flexible spatial learning under semi-natural conditions? The Lizard Lab (http://whitinglab.com/?p=3788)

[Amadeus]

Pareeeee This site is not related to snake research but you may find the articles interesting. They have a number of different studies going on with assorted lizards and amphibians.

Hot off the press! ?Learning outdoors: male lizards show flexible spatial learning under semi-natural conditions? The Lizard Lab (http://whitinglab.com/?p=3788)

Lizards are a whole different ball game, but I'll read it anyway.

[Starbuck]

Amadeus, I am interested to know why you 'are not convinced'. Certainly this article is only suggesting that snakes can respond to certain environmental cues repeatedly (at statistically greater than chance levels), but what is your evidence refuting this suggestion?
how would you define learning in a non-vocal animal, without the means to solve a tactile puzzle (like a varanid or octopus could)?

[Amadeus]

In my opinion for something to "learn" it must be sentient being.

Example, it has been well documented that primates can learn and solve problems but we know that they have higher brain function and their own kind of emotion, but a snake is known to have limited cognitive capabilities and it is illogical to assume that they can ''learn" as we think of it but rather develop a means to continue living.

[Tracy33]

well I think they can and do learn . I mean I toilet trained my eguanas , it took a little time , but they learned . I sense my python can be quite knowing of things , we don't give them enough credit . When he was younger he used to snake around the room , again and again the same way , he would always snake over us whilst we sat on the sofa and just sit with us for a bit . He also seems to know the door , he will go up it until you open it for him . If I allow anyone to handle him , he so tries to get back on me . He allows me to pet him , yes even on top of the head , and under his chin . When he was very small , I would carry him in my pocket , so he would really get used to me , of course he is 9ft now . I have always been hands on with my reptiles . My tortoise , well I could go on about him to .

[Amadeus]

well I think they can and do learn . I mean I toilet trained my eguanas , it took a little time , but they learned . I sense my python can be quite knowing of things , we don't give them enough credit . When he was younger he used to snake around the room , again and again the same way , he would always snake over us whilst we sat on the sofa and just sit with us for a bit . He also seems to know the door , he will go up it until you open it for him . If I allow anyone to handle him , he so tries to get back on me . He allows me to pet him , yes even on top of the head , and under his chin . When he was very small , I would carry him in my pocket , so he would really get used to me , of course he is 9ft now . I have always been hands on with my reptiles . My tortoise , well I could go on about him to .

Thank you for telling us that you have more body heat than others.

[Starbuck]

i think it is unfair of you to compare primate's learning capabilities to those of snakes. Clearly, we are talking about very different criteria in these cases.
How would you compare a primate (such as a chimp or bonobo) to an ant?
Both require being part of a larger group. Both communicate (albeit in different ways, chemical and tactile vs. vocal and visual) to overcome a task, whether it is 'hey look at this food resource i found over here!' or 'you're not part of my group/go away' or 'how do we overcome this temporary obstacle (such as a flood, fire, winter etc)'.

How would you argue that an animal is 'sentient', if it recognizes the self? To my knowledge, only higher primates, dolphins, SOME elephants (roughly half fail the self recgnition test), and maybe some parrots can recognize their image as their own. Dogs can not, rats can not, yet both of these species are very intelligent, and i believe we can say they can 'learn'.

One of the things to point out among all of the above mentioned taxa is that the more 'social' and animal is, the easier it is to classify it as smart. those animals which tend to be solitary among the above taxa are less likely to be ascribed as intelligent (sperm whales vs. bottlenose for example). Perhaps we simply fail (as social humans) at quantifying the intelligence of a non-social SNAKE.
It is also difficult to work a snake's brain to complete our trials; as what do we have that a snake really wants? It certainly isnt craving attention, we can't use food because it could skew the data due to olfaction, etc etc. In the study mentioned in the OP, they used a negative stimuli (bright lights, open arena) and reward was simply a dark, tight, hide. The problem here is creating a trial that works with the snakes main senses, olfaction/chemosensory and visual (as mentioned in the OP's article), i.e. using their language to present a problem that they have to overcome.

[Pareeeee]

In my opinion for something to "learn" it must be sentient being.

Example, it has been well documented that primates can learn and solve problems but we know that they have higher brain function and their own kind of emotion, but a snake is known to have limited cognitive capabilities and it is illogical to assume that they can ''learn" as we think of it but rather develop a means to continue living.

Dogs learn, rats learn, cats learn, ravens learn, dolphins learn, none of which are "sentient" beings.

[Amadeus]

i think it is unfair of you to compare primate's learning capabilities to those of snakes. Clearly, we are talking about very different criteria in these cases.
How would you compare a primate (such as a chimp or bonobo) to an ant?
Both require being part of a larger group. Both communicate (albeit in different ways, chemical and tactile vs. vocal and visual) to overcome a task, whether it is 'hey look at this food resource i found over here!' or 'you're not part of my group/go away' or 'how do we overcome this temporary obstacle (such as a flood, fire, winter etc)'.

How would you argue that an animal is 'sentient', if it recognizes the self? To my knowledge, only higher primates, dolphins, SOME elephants (roughly half fail the self recgnition test), and maybe some parrots can recognize their image as their own. Dogs can not, rats can not, yet both of these species are very intelligent, and i believe we can say they can 'learn'.

One of the things to point out among all of the above mentioned taxa is that the more 'social' and animal is, the easier it is to classify it as smart. those animals which tend to be solitary among the above taxa are less likely to be ascribed as intelligent (sperm whales vs. bottlenose for example). Perhaps we simply fail (as social humans) at quantifying the intelligence of a non-social SNAKE.
It is also difficult to work a snake's brain to complete our trials; as what do we have that a snake really wants? It certainly isnt craving attention, we can't use food because it could skew the data due to olfaction, etc etc. In the study mentioned in the OP, they used a negative stimuli (bright lights, open arena) and reward was simply a dark, tight, hide. The problem here is creating a trial that works with the snakes main senses, olfaction/chemosensory and visual (as mentioned in the OP's article), i.e. using their language to present a problem that they have to overcome.
It would be impossible to compare a single ant to a primate but the group similar to our brain is intelligent.

[Amadeus]

Dogs learn, rats learn, cats learn, ravens learn, dolphins learn, none of which are "sentient" beings.

You didn't get it....

[Pareeeee]

You didn't get it....

Oh I do get what you said. I just disagree with it. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. IMO snakes obviously "learn" - not to the extent that mammals and birds do - but they do remember things, such as feeding tongs mean "food" and as the article stated, how to locate the hiding spot quickly from memory. The article didn't try to convince us that they are as smart as primates, but that they have good memory-recall abilities. It makes sense, having good memory of certain things can increase your odds of survival.

PS: I enjoy the way you insert trekkie grammar and words into your sentences, only another trekkie (moi) would pick up on because I do it myself.

[Mikoh4792]

Doesn't any living thing with memory have the ability to learn? No matter how simple it's memory is, it's still learning isn't it?

[Pareeeee]

Doesn't any living thing with memory have the ability to learn? No matter how simple it's memory is, it's still learning isn't it?

Agreed, even my fish (an animal often considered less intelligent than snakes) go nuts as soon as they see the food container. Fish in the wild would have no idea what it was but mine remember because they have learned a visual cue. Learning is learning, higher animals can just learn more complex things.

[Amadeus]

Oh I do get what you said. I just disagree with it. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. IMO snakes obviously "learn" - not to the extent that mammals and birds do - but they do remember things, such as feeding tongs mean "food" and as the article stated, how to locate the hiding spot quickly from memory. The article didn't try to convince us that they are as smart as primates, but that they have good memory-recall abilities. It makes sense, having good memory of certain things can increase your odds of survival.

PS: I enjoy the way you insert trekkie grammar and words into your sentences, only another trekkie (moi) would pick up on because I do it myself.

Hahah ok,

The M class planet 2 light years from our current position is inhabited by a race of proto-Vulcan Humanoids....

I couldn't resist.

[Amadeus]

On another note I was trying to convey that the memory which I now have some reason to believe they have is not the same as our memories.

Example: We have very emotional responses to memory and it can affect our decisions, but a reptile would see feeding tongs and think om nom nom nom must eat.

So what I mean is that they may have memory but it is not how we as sentient ;) humans think of it as.

[Pareeeee]

On another note I was trying to convey that the memory which I now have some reason to believe they have is not the same as our memories.

Example: We have very emotional responses to memory and it can affect our decisions, but a reptile would see feeding tongs and think om nom nom nom must eat.

So what I mean is that they may have memory but it is not how we as sentient ;) humans think of it as.

Yeah, I think you missed something in my original post where I specifically asked people not to discuss snake emotions. ;) It's been hashed an rehashed here so many times, and emotion really isn't relevant (or shouldn't be relevant) in a discussion on memory/learning in animals. This is purely a discussion about learning and memory ability.

I don't believe that they learn with emotion.

Q'plah.

[Mikoh4792]

On another note I was trying to convey that the memory which I now have some reason to believe they have is not the same as our memories.

Example: We have very emotional responses to memory and it can affect our decisions, but a reptile would see feeding tongs and think om nom nom nom must eat.

So what I mean is that they may have memory but it is not how we as sentient ;) humans think of it as.

No one said snake memory was similar to human memory. The only thing proposed by the first post was that snakes can learn.

[possum]

I'm glad you posted this Pareeeee, I recall reading it a long time back. Snakes learn their way around in the wild...where to hide...otherwise they don't survive. Look at all the snakes that return to hibernation dens, for example. And they've done radio-telemetry studies following released (relocated) snakes...they do not survive new places very well because they do not know where the best hiding places are, to get to quickly in case of excessive hot or cold temperatures or predators. When they are put in a new place, it takes time & luck to find such places to hide before predators find them or conditions do them in.

I used to have a particular snake (a Trans Pecos ratsnake, not that it matters) that remembered & "liked" to thread itself thru the belt-loops on my jeans...clearly this was something she learned & remembered. And I've lived with enough snakes to know they learn who they are safe with (me!) but that's a long story you wouldn't believe anyway.

I make no claims about dissecting snake brains or all that...but they are now finding that other parts of the human brain can take over functions for parts lost...so I have to wonder why anyone here can be SO positive that just because they cannot see a limbic system or whatever in a snake's brain that snake-brains are not compensating with other structures not yet understood. I guess I just don't understand how, if you like snakes, anyone can be so quick to essentially write them off instead of giving the 'benefit of the doubt'?

And besides, if humans are so 'smart', why are we always at war? & always screwing up the planet? I'm not so sure our intelligence is really serving us that well... heck, people aren't even smart enough to limit their reproduction to fit the resources at hand. You'd think by now we could at LEAST figure that one out?! And if I get stuck in a dark alley, I'd rather it be with a snake than my fellow man, I can tell you that.

[Tracy33]

Your right possum , well said . Anyway regards this thread , that was only what I was pointing out in my post , that indeed snakes do have memory .The little things he does are from memory , and he knows that I am no threat to him . What I was telling you was not in the emotional way , but a logic way . They adapt to what ever is around them , even humans, to survive .

[Pareeeee]

I think the problem is the mere lack of scientific studies on snake intelligence.

Because of this lack of information people end up forming their own (often erroneous) opinions based on what they observe in their snake's behaviour, because they compare it with mammal or other animal behaviour. Something you just can't do with snakes.

[jarich]

On another note I was trying to convey that the memory which I now have some reason to believe they have is not the same as our memories.

Example: We have very emotional responses to memory and it can affect our decisions, but a reptile would see feeding tongs and think om nom nom nom must eat.

So what I mean is that they may have memory but it is not how we as sentient ;) humans think of it as.

How ironic. Your level of sentience in this discussion is exactly what keeps you from understanding that you have not learned enough about the topic. The awareness of subjectivity is not a requirement for learning anymore than being able to chew peanut butter is. Of course they dont learn the same as humans. Humans dont even learn the same as other humans. Why would learning the same way as humans be the criteria for the general capacity to remember information and alter behaviour accordingly?

Ugh, whether or not reptiles learn is not up for debate. They can and do. What is debatable is the speed and method by which they do. This article talks about the surprising ways in which they learn, not whether or not they are able to do so.

[possum]

I have great respect for scientific research...but I also think you can over-rely on it. Don't forget that scientists once gave us thalidomide as 'safe' and said it was healthier to substitute margarine (full of trans fats) for butter (merely saturated fats). Research is generally driven by the almighty dollar....we are told things are healthy to consume because some are getting rich selling it, so I wouldn't look for the scientific community to resolve snake brains any time soon...LOL! I agree with you Jarich....snakes "can & do" learn. I also think that people will only see what they want to see...

[Pirarucu]

With my newest video up, I'll have some input. My Reticulated Python displays an astonishing level of intelligence, even when compared to what I have heard about other retics.
One of the most notable examples is that he has learned a signal not at all related to food. When he is out exploring he inevitably tries to get somewhere he is not supposed to go, and sometimes he gets too far to be maneuvered out easily. In this case I simply place a hand on him and firmly hold his midsection. He has learned that this means he can either come out on his own, exactly how he got in, or I will get him out myself. He now reliably and calmly comes out on his own, without getting tangled along the way. I let him go and he continues exploring.
10:40 and 27:24 give examples of this. Oh, and he displays a basic understanding of physics at 28:20....
SJM0RLeFLh8

[bcr226]

In my opinion for something to "learn" it must be sentient being.

Example, it has been well documented that primates can learn and solve problems but we know that they have higher brain function and their own kind of emotion, but a snake is known to have limited cognitive capabilities and it is illogical to assume that they can ''learn" as we think of it but rather develop a means to continue living.

Snakes learn. Like my wife said above, look at hook training. It's not a suggestion, it's a fact that it works. The snake learns to respond in certain ways to specific stimuli. It's not a natural instinct, it's a learned behavior.

This is a great subject for a science project for my daughter. I'll bring it up with her.