Hasn't eaten since the beginning of March.

[Pareeeee]

So I know it's normal for BPs to go of food from time to time but Kahless is still young (almost a year old now) but still in the growing stage. I wanted him to be EATING during his growing stage!!! :unibrow: He just sits there for a while while I dance it around on the tongs, and he acts as if the rat isn't even there. If I touch him with it to try waking him from his "trance" he then tries to escape from it like it's scary or gross or something :P

Unfortunately he has been off food for just over four months now, he stopped eating after I fed him a larger-than-usual rat back in March. (I don't believe it was too big for him though, probably just a coincidence)

Things in his enclosure haven't really changed from what I can tell, except that back in March his heater failed and was fluctuating all over the place, so I replaced it and his temps have been in the mid 90's ever since. His humidity is always between 60-70%. I haven't changed hides or tubs or substrate or anything else.

Should I be worried or is he just being a stubborn BP? He doesn't look bad, of course he's lean but he doesn't look unhealthy.
He just shed last week.

[Aaron_S]

Don't be worried. He shall be fine.

If you really want to see if he'll eat, use a live rat.

[Terranaut]

Mine is 7months and counting with no weight loss. If your husbandry is correct and he isn't losing weight then don't worry. I honnestly think the old story of snakes starving themselves to death is an urban legend. I have heard of it but don't know anyone who has had this happen and if it did there was an underlying cause to it and not just being fussy.

[Pareeeee]

Thanks for your replies. I was thinking he's just being picky but wanted to make sure. Do you handle your BP's at all when they go off food? (since they apparently do it very often) Or do you wait till they eat again?

Aaron, I think I'll hold off on the live rat. He hasn't eaten live since he was basically a hatchling and I don't want to remind him what he's been missing if you know what I mean.
I just found it odd that he went off food since he's always been a ravenous little beast until now.

[Terranaut]

Mine was ravinous and then nothing. I handle mine all the time.

[Lankyrob]

I made it a rule to not handle any snake not eating

[Terranaut]

I made it a rule to not handle any snake not eating

I wouldn't handle a snake not eating due to stress but due to breeding season or normal fasting ,I don't see any issue.

[Lankyrob]

Its totally personal choice, i know. I dont handle my snakes much anyway so if one isnt feeding not hsndling it isnt a major problem.

[Pareeeee]

Now he's just acting like a dummy. I just tried feeding him a few moments ago without success. I tried just leaving him in his enclosure this time instead of a feeding tub, also tried braining the rat.
He first acted interested, then aloof, then annoyed, then terrified. He started hissing at it this time. It's as if his "food phobia" is growing stronger. What a stupid snake. I just wish he'd eat so things can go back to normal....

[possum]

I wonder how long the heater was malfunctioning? It may have been enough to make him think "winter" & refuse food?

Honestly BP's can be frustrating to feed...you have to keep trying things until you find what works, or get used to waiting, LOL. I've been known to use a small live "appetizer" (eyes closed/harmless) and slowly/gently* follow that with a pre-killed (f/t) rodent of the proper meal size. *If you do it right, when his mouth is open swallowing the 'snack', he will just keep swallowing the additional item. Done wrong (too obviously), he'll curl his neck & refuse it.

I would avoid handling a non-feeding snake as well. It distracts them from "being a snake first".

[snakeman879]

Hi I had this happen to me it is extreamly frustrating but all will be fine my ball went off ffeed for 6 months and out ov the blu feeding again as normal just offer food every 2 weeks and keep handeling to a minimum as royalls ar verry nervous at the best ov times all the best

[DestinyLynette]

Humidity should be 50-60, not 60-70. Nearing 70% is really only appropriate during shed.

However, I'd say your guy is just fine; I've reads stories about people have a BP go off feed for a YEAR. If you really want him eating, try live, maybe a bit smaller than usual, and see if he'll take to it. My guess is a yes.

I'm not overly familiar with f/t myself, but I know it's suggested it's heated to at least 90 all the way through and that you "zombie dance" it lol. My own snakes are on live, but I've fed others' for them f/t and they seem to respond better when I hold the rat / mouse by the tail and move it for them. Maybe also try scenting the air.

If all else fails, don't stress; your snake is capable of going quite a while without food. Sometimes they're just stubborn.

[Mikoh4792]

Humidity should be 50-60, not 60-70. Nearing 70% is really only appropriate during shed.

What do you have to validate this? I've been keeping my ball pythons 60-70% and they are fine.

[DestinyLynette]

Always been the given rule of thumb with anyone I've ever spoken to. Breeders, BP.net, etc. 50-60% humidity as the norm and then a bump up to 70% when shedding; I've had perfect sheds with this. Best is really at 55-60, but if you're shooting for 50-60 you usually land in the middle anyway. But I've never heard of being close to 70% as a normal.
But for credible sources:
via worldofballpythons.com:
A ball pythons humidity should not drop below 50% but 55% - 60% is ideal.

Markus Jayne BP under "care":
A humidity level of 60% is recommended.

ball-pythons.net caresheet:
HUMIDITY: 50%-60%


Though in all reality, as long as there isn't water collecting on the sides of the tub and the bedding isn't wet, it's more than likely fine. I live in south MS, and the air here is already 40-60%, so admittedly I tend to keep mine a bit lower to allow wiggle room on the extra humid days. Mine personally stays at about 57-62% depending on the day. My housing condenses quickly at very much above 70 so that dictates my choice as well.

[Mikoh4792]

Always been the given rule of thumb with anyone I've ever spoken to. Breeders, BP.net, etc. 50-60% humidity as the norm and then a bump up to 70% when shedding; I've had perfect sheds with this. Best is really at 55-60, but if you're shooting for 50-60 you usually land in the middle anyway. But I've never heard of being close to 70% as a normal.
But for credible sources:
via worldofballpythons.com:


Markus Jayne BP under "care":


ball-pythons.net caresheet:



Though in all reality, as long as there isn't water collecting on the sides of the tub and the bedding isn't wet, it's more than likely fine. I live in south MS, and the air here is already 40-60%, so admittedly I tend to keep mine a bit lower to allow wiggle room on the extra humid days. Mine personally stays at about 57-62% depending on the day. My housing condenses quickly at very much above 70 so that dictates my choice as well.

I see. You've proven your point that 50-60% is recommended by credible sources. However, you said that nearing 70% is not appropriate unless shedding. Could you explain? My ball pythons have been provided with that humidity range and they have been doing well.(I don't mist, the combination of a low tub and water bowl just gets the humidity that high)

[DestinyLynette]

Not necessary was probably a better choice or words. A lot of people with the traditional tank set up struggle to keep it at the bare 50%, much less 70% consistently. I think 70% without misting / wet substrate is probably fine. The main concern with constant 70% is wet substrate I think, which obviously spikes a scale rot worried. 70% with dry substrate consistently is probably just fine. I hear you on that low tub thing; I had to solder an INSANE amount of holes in my 41qt to get it to drop down and not condense to the point I had water drip-dropping off the top. I just have to fill the water half way to keep my range; all the way and it's suddenly a rainforest in there.

[Mikoh4792]

I hear you on that low tub thing; I had to solder an INSANE amount of holes in my 41qt to get it to drop down and not condense to the point I had water drip-dropping off the top. I just have to fill the water half way to keep my range; all the way and it's suddenly a rainforest in there.

Tell me about it lol. I have about 40 holes in my tubs and the ability to still maintain heat and moisture is insane.

[Snowshoes]

try freezing it and then re-thawing it? For some reason, I've heard people have had good luck with that. Personally, I feed mine live.

[Pareeeee]

I do not mist my BP's enclosure, and there is no condensation, so no worry of wet substrate.
I use the water dish to humidify his tub. I have a large dish and a small dish, the large dish I use in the winter when humidity is low and the small one I use in the summer. The reason it was at 70% is because in July the general humidity in my house/outside was 60%. With the water dish in his tub it put it up to 70%, but I didn't want to take his dish away so had no way of lowering it.
I'm thinking of putting some extra holes in the lid.
Humidity is back at 60% now in case anyone is wondering.

I have given him smaller hide and he seems to really like being squeezed into a small space. Hopefully that will make him feel a little safer too and he will eat soon!! Keeping my fingers crossed.

[Aaron_S]

I do not mist my BP's enclosure, and there is no condensation, so no worry of wet substrate.
I use the water dish to humidify his tub. I have a large dish and a small dish, the large dish I use in the winter when humidity is low and the small one I use in the summer. The reason it was at 70% is because in July the general humidity in my house/outside was 60%. With the water dish in his tub it put it up to 70%, but I didn't want to take his dish away so had no way of lowering it.
I'm thinking of putting some extra holes in the lid.
Humidity is back at 60% now in case anyone is wondering.

I have given him smaller hide and he seems to really like being squeezed into a small space. Hopefully that will make him feel a little safer too and he will eat soon!! Keeping my fingers crossed.

An increase to 70% over the course of a few weeks won't hurt the snake. Condensation on the sides of the bin aren't even a big deal. It's wet substrate. Which is how scale rot would set in if the snake was left in it for a prolonged period of time. I mean a long time.

Like I said before, they love tight spaces. Tighter, the better.

[snakeman879]

U say u feed live to ur snake do u supervise whilst its eating?? I saw loads ov really bad pics when the rat. Took chunks out ov a bp and sadly the snake had to be uthenized. Dont get why people risk it unless thats all the snake will eat.

[Aaron_S]

U say u feed live to ur snake do u supervise whilst its eating?? I saw loads ov really bad pics when the rat. Took chunks out ov a bp and sadly the snake had to be uthenized. Dont get why people risk it unless thats all the snake will eat.

Don't leave it in overnight and you're safe.

Also, rats usually don't do that. Mice do.

[snakeman879]

O U say u feed ur bp live do u stay whilst the bp is constricti ?? Have seen disgusting pics ov bp that have been eaten alive by the rat/mouse I dont c the need to feed live pray unless that is all the snake wull eat

[Aaron_S]

O U say u feed ur bp live do u stay whilst the bp is constricti ?? Have seen disgusting pics ov bp that have been eaten alive by the rat/mouse I dont c the need to feed live pray unless that is all the snake wull eat

My adults don't eat live.

My fresh babies eat live mice or rats for their first couple meals.

I drop in their food. Close the bin and come back 15 minutes later. Either it's eaten or it's not. If not, it's removed.

It's not like mice or even a rat are vicious killing animals always looking to eat your snake. It takes time for it to happen.

[Nobodyspecial]

Pareeeeeee - I dunno if your ball still hasn't eaten yet, but I figured I'd throw this out there. I've noticed a trend with my balls. Once they're about a year old they'll start getting picky about how I present the food. They no longer want the "zombie dance" off the tongs- I had a few refuse to eat for awhile, but when I just put the warmed up rat inside the cage tub in front of their hide and walked away they took it just fine. Picky little creatures. Its like they finally figured out that "Hey that's not how rats move! What the heck!?"

May of just been my animals, but its worth a shot?

[Pareeeee]

Pareeeeeee - I dunno if your ball still hasn't eaten yet, but I figured I'd throw this out there. I've noticed a trend with my balls. Once they're about a year old they'll start getting picky about how I present the food. They no longer want the "zombie dance" off the tongs- I had a few refuse to eat for awhile, but when I just put the warmed up rat inside the cage tub in front of their hide and walked away they took it just fine. Picky little creatures. Its like they finally figured out that "Hey that's not how rats move! What the heck!?"

May of just been my animals, but its worth a shot?

Thanks for the tip, I will try that next time.

[Pareeeee]

Finally had no choice but to assist feed him a couple days ago. I didn't want to do it, but over the last few weeks he started losing weight and I noticed a triangular shape to his body with a slight ridge down his spine.

Good news is that the assist feed went well (for him anyway!). I took the f/t rat with the tongs and gently wiggled it into his mouth, and he suddenly remembered (for the first time in months!) that hey...rats are food! I got this crazy feeding response, he grabbed the mouse and wrapped around my hand and wrist. Was interesting, he tightened more and more every time I had an involuntary twitch in my hand. I waited and waited for what seemed like ten minutes, finally had to carefully and slowly peel him off of me. My hand was pulsing and red when it was all over, but he ate the rat and I'm going to feed him again in a couple days. (Hopefully I don't have to assist next time)


Also, I'm having trouble getting his heat constant. Could it be the fact that I have too much ventilation under the heat mat and fluctuations in room temperature mess with the thermostat probe? I checked both my thermostats and they are both doing the same thing. I also bought a new heat mat to see if it was the problem, but still having issues. All I can think of is too much ventilation. I will take a pic of the setup shortly to see if you guys have any info.

[Aaron_S]

Finally had no choice but to assist feed him a couple days ago. I didn't want to do it, but over the last few weeks he started losing weight and I noticed a triangular shape to his body with a slight ridge down his spine.

Good news is that the assist feed went well (for him anyway!). I took the f/t rat with the tongs and gently wiggled it into his mouth, and he suddenly remembered (for the first time in months!) that hey...rats are food! I got this crazy feeding response, he grabbed the mouse and wrapped around my hand and wrist. Was interesting, he tightened more and more every time I had an involuntary twitch in my hand. I waited and waited for what seemed like ten minutes, finally had to carefully and slowly peel him off of me. My hand was pulsing and red when it was all over, but he ate the rat and I'm going to feed him again in a couple days. (Hopefully I don't have to assist next time)


Also, I'm having trouble getting his heat constant. Could it be the fact that I have too much ventilation under the heat mat and fluctuations in room temperature mess with the thermostat probe? I checked both my thermostats and they are both doing the same thing. I also bought a new heat mat to see if it was the problem, but still having issues. All I can think of is too much ventilation. I will take a pic of the setup shortly to see if you guys have any info.

Don't feed him again so soon. Wait at least 5 days between feedings. I'd do 7 as assist feeding is stressful.

Have you tried placing the probes in different places for thermostat? The air temp in the room could be screwing with it a bit, yes.

[Pareeeee]

EDIT: thanks Aaron for the quick response.

Here's the heat mat. I think the grate on my new rack is the problem. Never had this problem in the old wooden stand I had him in.

http://i.imgur.com/LcitQqg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xEgJtkb.jpg

Thermostat probe. Maybe I'll try insulating the probe against the mat, any suggestions on insulating materials?
http://i.imgur.com/BBCjziw.jpg

[Aaron_S]

I'm not the greatest with insulation materials so someone else would be better to ask.

Hmm, you should be okay but it could be the ventilation affecting the heat mats/thermostats.

What kind of t-stats are you using?

[Pareeeee]

What kind of t-stats are you using?

Zoo Med. Which always worked well for me in the past. The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think that all the thermostat problems started when I got the new rack. Maybe even if I put something down over the holes and put the heat mat & probe on top of that. If you know what I mean.

Gah, I have to go to bed.

[Aaron_S]

Zoo Med. Which always worked well for me in the past. The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think that all the thermostat problems started when I got the new rack. Maybe even if I put something down over the holes and put the heat mat & probe on top of that. If you know what I mean.

Gah, I have to go to bed.

I know someone who has a similar rack to yours. They took melamine and covered each shelf like any other rack. You can try that.

I'd recommend using a router to make space for the heatpad in the wood to allow airflow like we would do with a rack system and heat tape.

Lastly, is it a proportionate t-stat or on/off? If it's on/off that would lead to some issues as it doesn't maintain temps with lower power like a proportionate would.

[Pareeeee]

I know someone who has a similar rack to yours. They took melamine and covered each shelf like any other rack. You can try that.

I'd recommend using a router to make space for the heatpad in the wood to allow airflow like we would do with a rack system and heat tape.

Lastly, is it a proportionate t-stat or on/off? If it's on/off that would lead to some issues as it doesn't maintain temps with lower power like a proportionate would.

I will have to take a look at some melamine then.

The t-stats are on/off, but they used to work great before the new rack.

[Aaron_S]

I will have to take a look at some melamine then.

The t-stats are on/off, but they used to work great before the new rack.

Yes but now that there's more airflow the temps go down quicker so the t-stat has a harder time getting back up to the set temp when it starts in the off mode.

I think if you use the melamine route you should be okay. (I won't guarantee it :D)

[Pareeeee]

Just bought melamine sheets yesterday and already noticing more consistent temperatures! :)

Must have been the problem!