Inhumane Rat Killing--I'm Upset

[Chu'Wuti]

I just learned--after buying 2 months supply of rats for various snakes--that the rat breeder I buy from DROWNS the rats. I was so shocked that I couldn't say anything, but it has been preying on my mind (pun not intended).

As I was tossing the frozen rats into my freezer, he mentioned that I would probably have to partially thaw them to get them separated because he hadn't dried them after drowning them. I thought I hadn't heard him correctly at first, then realized he was completely serious. This was yesterday; today I looked up the American Veterinary Association's humane euthanasia guidelines to double-check them because I had never heard anyone else say they used this method, and because I've seen LOTS of posts here on ssnakess.com about the use of CO2 or other humane methods, and drowning was never mentioned. It made me think of water-boarding . . . ugh.

Needless to say, I won't be buying any more rats from this person. However, he is a fairly well-respected snake breeder in my local area, and I am struggling with what to say to others. I want very badly to tell people he is using inhumane kill methods, but it won't go over well, I know.

How would some of you handle this??

[Lupinus]

Not buy from him and if others asked why I stopped, tell them exactly why.

[smy_749]

advise him of an alternative which is just as easy. Or just dont buy from him

[Chu'Wuti]

Not buying from him is the easy decision, which I've already made.

However, that leaves me with a very uncomfortable ethical dilemma that is NOT an easy decision. I can inform him of alternatives, such as a CO2 chamber. I don't think he wants to do cervical dislocation, because he's trying to kill numbers of rats at once, not one at a time, and the CO2 chamber is the only way I can think of that he can kill a number simultaneously.

That still leaves me with what to tell others . . . at least one other person I HAVE to tell, because I recommended that they get F rats from him, and I know for a fact that they would be completely horrified to learn how he's killing them and would then wonder if I knew when I recommended him. I won't have that misunderstanding develop.

But what about the larger herp community in this local area? Would any of you make a public announcement? Or would you simply let the message percolate through the community in its own time? I also don't want this guy to sue me for ruining his business--though he told me himself, so I imagine I'm not the only person who has heard this. I hope.

[KORBIN5895]

He won't be able to win a law suit against you if he is being charged with animal cruelty.

[smy_749]

I'm suprised pest control doesn't have to 'relocate' rats these days, sticky traps, electrocution chambers or w.e they are, and poison are pretty inhumane. If youre really that bothered by it, and would like something to get done, I would just be the thorn in his side and advertise his practices everywhere he advertises his business. But honestly, I hate rats and probably wouldn't care enough to go through all that (might be wrong but its the truth)

[RandyRhoads]

^ I also don't give a rats *** about how he kills them (Haha...)

[formica]

I'd take them to whatever the US equivilant of the RSPCA is, and get it dealt with properly. its not a quick way to kill any animal, the amount of suffering must be emmense, and if he can do that, then what else is he doing?

[Amadeus]

I couldn't care less about how my rats are killed....

Pahhh water boarding.

[Terranaut]

So suffacation by CO2 is less stressful than by water?
Unless he pops their necks they suffer regardless.

[Little Wise Owl]

...But honestly, I hate rats and probably wouldn't care enough to go through all that (might be wrong but its the truth)

I couldn't care less about how my rats are killed....

This kind of thing really rubs me the wrong way. Because you hate something or don't care about it doesn't mean it's okay to be cruel to it. I hate Guinea Pigs but I would never go out of my way to kill one inhumanely and if I were in OP's position and this were about Guinea Pigs, I would no longer give that man my business.

I think all animals should be treated with respect. Feeders or not.

Now back to the original post...

I would simply not give him my business anymore and if anyone asked, I would tell them why. I would maybe perhaps explain to him that I would no longer be giving him my business because of his methods.

[formica]

CO2 sends most animals to sleep before it kills them; that is why its the most humane method (for mammals), nothing like drowning.

[smy_749]

@ Owl , I meant that I wouldn't care enough to go through all that as in, go through all that trouble to let people know about it, be a thorn in his side, etc.

But anyways, rats and mice are pests and ruin native populations of wildlife in every country they end up in. They cause nasty diseases and there are plenty to go around, so if someone wants to drown his mice, I don't give a sh$$.

As for me, If I was going to breed them, I'd probably do cervical dislocation so I don't have to do deal with a nasty bucket of water and rats, or buying c02 tanks.

If you don't like inhumane ways of killing, you should probably just go vegetarian if your not already.

[sweatshirt]

If you don't like inhumane ways of killing, you should probably just go vegetarian if your not already.

I'm vegetarian and one of the most common things I'm asked since I got Magenta is "why do you feed your snake frozen rats then? They're killed cruelly."

It's like.. what do you expect me to do? Force her to eat a carrot? Just because I'm vegetarian doesn't mean I'm going to make my carnivorous pets eat veggies.

Anyways OP... I believe that all living things are sacred, however I can't say that I don't sometimes find sick pleasure in squishing bugs or throwing snails in water. Maybe your rat guy is just some weirdo with too much time on his hands...? Sometimes people take out their frustrations on animals, which is bad. I stick to insects. Or he's just one of those people who thinks freezing or drowning feeders is "so much simpler" than spending either money for a chamber or time to find how to do cervical dislocation?

If it makes you uncomfortable, stop buying from him. I would as well.

[Lankyrob]

If it affects you that much i would stop buying from him and tell yuor friends and fellow herpers why, they can then decide if they want to use him or not

[RandyRhoads]

I'm vegetarian and...


Do you know how to tell if someone is a vegetarian...?


Don't worry, they'll tell you...

[Zoo Nanny]

CO2 tanks are far from humane. I hated using them because you could hear the animals thrashing in there for minutes before they would die. It's no better than drowning. Cervical dislocation or a spike to the brain is much quicker and more humane for the animals.

[lady_bug87]

Do you know how to tell if someone is a vegetarian...?


Don't worry, they'll tell you...

I hear it's the same for nymphomaniacs

[RandyRhoads]

CO2 tanks are far from humane. I hated using them because you could hear the animals thrashing in there for minutes before they would die. It's no better than drowning. Cervical dislocation or a spike to the brain is much quicker and more humane for the animals.

Haven't we beat the hypercapniac death horse to... Er... Death?

[Amadeus]

I'm vegetarian and one of the most common things I'm asked since I got Magenta is "why do you feed your snake frozen rats then? They're killed cruelly."

It's like.. what do you expect me to do? Force her to eat a carrot? Just because I'm vegetarian doesn't mean I'm going to make my carnivorous pets eat veggies.

Anyways OP... I believe that all living things are sacred, however I can't say that I don't sometimes find sick pleasure in squishing bugs or throwing snails in water. Maybe your rat guy is just some weirdo with too much time on his hands...? Sometimes people take out their frustrations on animals, which is bad. I stick to insects. Or he's just one of those people who thinks freezing or drowning feeders is "so much simpler" than spending either money for a chamber or time to find how to do cervical dislocation?

If it makes you uncomfortable, stop buying from him. I would as well.

Humans are omnivorous you know. Meat is required in a healthy diet.

[sweatshirt]

Humans are omnivorous you know. Meat is required in a healthy diet.

Er... let's not do this. I've been vegetarian for 3 years and feel fine. I actually had a blood test a few days ago and everything was perfect. :/

And I wasn't meaning to push myself on others... not all veggies are like that.

[Amadeus]

Er... let's not do this. It's my choice.

And I wasn't meaning to push myself on others... not all veggies are like that.

Especially for an adolescent =]

Sorry but I spread the truth man.

Anyway I agree that Co2 which is what most commercial people use is just as inhumane as drowning. I used to drawn my rats when I bought live and they were dead in 20-30 seconds because they immediately inhaled water.

[sweatshirt]

Especially for an adolescent =]

Sorry but I spread the truth man.

:l Yeah... I'd just rather not do this. I hate drama. However, the only thing in meat that humans "need" is protein and amino acids, and I get enough of that protein from stuffing my face with yogurt (my fave food). You're healthy as long as you eat a healthy, varied diet.

And I'm a girl... if that's what you were implying :s

[Amadeus]

:l Yeah... I'd just rather not do this. I hate drama.

And I'm a girl... if that's what you were implying :s

I understand, I don't want to start fights but adolescent means teenager =]

[sweatshirt]

I know what adolescent means. I just meant when you said "man". :s

Anyways I respect your opinions and I hope you respect mine :)

[Lankyrob]

The is already a vegetarian discussion thread, take the chat there and get this thread somewhere near where the topic is meant to be?

[Amadeus]

I know what adolescent means. I just meant when you said "man". :s

Anyways I respect your opinions and I hope you respect mine :)

lol I say man a lot =]

[KORBIN5895]

CO2 sends most animals to sleep before it kills them; that is why its the most humane method (for mammals), nothing like drowning.

This info is very erroneous. We have w thread on here explaining why co² is humane at all. I even have an experiment you can try if you don't believe me.

Humans are omnivorous you know. Meat is required in a healthy diet.

Wow, you're an idiot man. If you would actually look into a balanced diet you would see that your statement is dead wrong.

On topic;

Drowning is inhumane because most animals are hard wire to struggle in water. The truth of the matter is that once you inhale water it fills your lings and you don't get that burning sensation you get when your holding your breath. I know this because I got caught in an under current when I was a child and inhaled water before I got dragged out.

[smy_749]

This info is very erroneous. We have w thread on here explaining why co² is humane at all. I even have an experiment you can try if you don't believe me.



Wow, you're an idiot man. If you would actually look into a balanced diet you would see that your statement is dead wrong.

On topic;

Drowning is inhumane because most animals are hard wire to struggle in water. The truth of the matter is that once you inhale water it fills your lings and you don't get that burning sensation you get when your holding your breath. I know this because I got caught in an under current when I was a child and inhaled water before I got dragged out.

So drowning only sucks while you hold you breath? I have heard that before....

[KORBIN5895]

So drowning only sucks while you hold you breath? I have heard that before....

Lol! It's pure panic. Once you inhale though your lungs feel heavy but they don't hurt. Coughing it out hurts like hell though!

[Amadeus]

This info is very erroneous. We have w thread on here explaining why co² is humane at all. I even have an experiment you can try if you don't believe me.



Wow, you're an idiot man. If you would actually look into a balanced diet you would see that your statement is dead wrong.

On topic;

Drowning is inhumane because most animals are hard wire to struggle in water. The truth of the matter is that once you inhale water it fills your lings and you don't get that burning sensation you get when your holding your breath. I know this because I got caught in an under current when I was a child and inhaled water before I got dragged out.

So I'm an idiot because you have superiority complex? I see. =]

could you go into greater detail? I'd love some more info on this. (your first semi-paragraph)


Agreed on the second though...

[KORBIN5895]

So I'm an idiot because you have superiority complex? I see. =]

could you go into greater detail? I'd love some more info on this. (your first semi-paragraph)


Agreed on the second though...

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/food-thought-forum/90448-euthanasia.html

Read through this one.

[Little Wise Owl]

But anyways, rats and mice are pests and ruin native populations of wildlife in every country they end up in. They cause nasty diseases and there are plenty to go around, so if someone wants to drown his mice, I don't give a sh$$.

They're pests so it's okay to be cruel to them.

Fabulous.

[smy_749]

They're pests so it's okay to be cruel to them.

Fabulous.

YUPPP.

You act like I sit here with live rats in my oven as we speak or something.....

Nature is cruel unfortunately, if you don't like it don't keep any animals. Drowning is a lot more humane than the way your reptiles kill in the wild anyways. I buy frozen, and I don't get any pleasure out of killing rats I assure you, but I don't shed tears over the ugly things neither.

[Amadeus]

They're pests so it's okay to be cruel to them.

Fabulous.

They are filthy creatures that bit and spread terrible diseases, they smell.

I have mice in the winter in my house and I use the glue traps so they suffer. =]

[sweatshirt]

Humans are filthy, disgusting creatures that spread diseases as well. We'd smell too if we didn't shower and wear deodorant.

Does that mean it's OK for us to be treated cruelly, tortured?

I'm not humanizing rats and mice, but don't tell me they don't suffer. They panic, but for a different reason than we do.

I accepted when I got a pet that needs frozen rats, that it's natural and healthy. I have nothing against feeding animals meat, obviously, but we should treat that meat with respect, because it's feeding OUR animals and some of us.

I, along with the next person, would hate to have an infestation of mice. But that doesn't mean I want to see them all burn in a hellfire. They're just doing what they think is natural.

[Amadeus]

Humans are filthy, disgusting creatures that spread diseases as well. We'd smell too if we didn't shower and wear deodorant.

Does that mean it's OK for us to be treated cruelly, tortured?

I'm not humanizing rats and mice, but don't tell me they don't suffer. They panic, but for a different reason than we do.

I accepted when I got a pet that needs frozen rats, that it's natural and healthy. I have nothing against feeding animals meat, obviously, but we should treat that meat with respect, because it's feeding OUR animals and some of us.

I, along with the next person, would hate to have an infestation of mice. But that doesn't mean I want to see them all burn in a hellfire. They're just doing what they think is natural.

We have different views I would love to see them burn in a hellfire.

Are you denying that humans are superior to rodents?

[smy_749]

Humans are filthy, disgusting creatures that spread diseases as well. We'd smell too if we didn't shower and wear deodorant.

Does that mean it's OK for us to be treated cruelly, tortured?

I'm not humanizing rats and mice, but don't tell me they don't suffer. They panic, but for a different reason than we do.

I accepted when I got a pet that needs frozen rats, that it's natural and healthy. I have nothing against feeding animals meat, obviously, but we should treat that meat with respect, because it's feeding OUR animals and some of us.

I, along with the next person, would hate to have an infestation of mice. But that doesn't mean I want to see them all burn in a hellfire. They're just doing what they think is natural.

If they have the ability and choose not to, then I treat them cruelly in most cases or just avoid them. Its disgusting.

[Akuma223]

As someone with pet rats, who knows the extent of their intelligence, this is just wrong on so many levels. Some people think snakes are pests, does that mean its acceptable to drown them or burn them alive? Absolutely fricking not. I HATE anything parasitic. I have a phobia of them, this doesn't mean I get my jollies off of making them suffer. No creature should have to suffer needlessly if theres a better way of doing things. Nature isn't pretty, we know that, but that doesn't mean we have to be cruel and careless.

[Amadeus]

As someone with pet rats, who knows the extent of their intelligence, this is just wrong on so many levels. Some people think snakes are pests, does that mean its acceptable to drown them or burn them alive? Absolutely fricking not. I HATE anything parasitic. I have a phobia of them, this doesn't mean I get my jollies off of making them suffer. No creature should have to suffer needlessly if theres a better way of doing things. Nature isn't pretty, we know that, but that doesn't mean we have to be cruel and careless.

El of el...

I smell elitist.

[Akuma223]

El of el...

I smell elitist.

Care to elaborate?

[Amadeus]

Care to elaborate?

On what? My opinions or your bullsh**?

[bcr229]

As someone with pet rats, who knows the extent of their intelligence, this is just wrong on so many levels. Some people think snakes are pests, does that mean its acceptable to drown them or burn them alive? Absolutely fricking not. I HATE anything parasitic. I have a phobia of them, this doesn't mean I get my jollies off of making them suffer. No creature should have to suffer needlessly if theres a better way of doing things. Nature isn't pretty, we know that, but that doesn't mean we have to be cruel and careless.
I wouldn't be mean or cruel to any animal, including a rat, but the local privately-owned pet shop sells us the aggressive, nasty ones that don't play well with others. We've gotten rats that have attacked and killed others within a few minutes. The snakes make sure they don't suffer... for long, anyway...

As for how suppliers euthanize rodents, I suspect many more drown them than most of us know.

[Akuma223]

On what? My opinions or your bullsh**?

My point is that NO animal or creature, NOT just rats should be treated like this. I'm not being elitist with my opinion that NOTHING should be treated that way. I am not a moron that thinks rats are so much better than any other animal. I don't care if its a cat, cow, snake, rat, or spider. They deserve some level of respect.

[sweatshirt]

My point is that NO animal or creature, NOT just rats should be treated like this. I'm not being elitist with my opinion that NOTHING should be treated that way. I am not a moron that thinks rats are so much better than any other animal. I don't care if its a cat, cow, snake, rat, or spider. They deserve some level of respect.

I feel the same way. It doesn't matter if you "hate" something. It's a living thing, no different than us, so respect it.

[Lankyrob]

My point is that NO animal or creature, NOT just rats should be treated like this. I'm not being elitist with my opinion that NOTHING should be treated that way. I am not a moron that thinks rats are so much better than any other animal. I don't care if its a cat, cow, snake, rat, or spider. They deserve some level of respect.

^^^^This

Anyone that mistreats animals is disgusting and some of the posts about using inhumane methods are also disgusting. I thought thats this forum was for animal lovers but i was obviously mistaken.

Using inhimane methods to dispose of "pests" speaks volumes on the type of person you are.

[KORBIN5895]

El of el...

I smell elitist.

That's funny because I'm smelling a ********....

[exwizard]

As someone who had pet rats and whose gf is currently keeping and breeding them, I can attest to their intelligence. That said, as someone who used to breed them myself and as someone who is helping in the care of another breeding colony, when raised for this purpose, they are snake food. I currently do not kill the rats I acquire as snake food. I let the snakes do it. It's quick. When I was in the business and we needed to freeze off some for those who preferred f/t, the bigger rats we sealed in a bucket with dry ice and water. That was also quick. The smaller ones we sealed in a food saver vacuum sealed bag which was also quick. I know breeders who "thump" them by slamming them to the floor and I've done that myself as well. No method of killing rats or mice is pleasant but for those who prefer f/t, killing the rats is necessary.

[infernalis]

this conversation is over, and will not be brought up again.