Garter snake emergancy!!!!!!!!!

[ErikBush97]

Hello everyone! Quick question... My garter is laying on her back and seems to have lost control of her muscles or something... I don't know... maybe she was climbing and fell off her rock & is having trouble getting on her belly? She is actually slithering around of her back... Again. she's fighting to try and flip herself onto her belly and has not suceeded. The closest reptile vet is 45 minutes away in a car, and two hours on the bus + I don't think they'd let me on the bus with my snake. I do not have a car... Is she just being silly or is she sick?? She has been acting very odd lately. She's been a bit fussy during handling and usually she'll explore my hands and arms but she has just been laying in my hands, without much response to me. I am pretty scared, and nervous and I don't know what this is. I haven't experienced anything close to this in the past. And she's struggling, trying to flip herself, as if she's exhausted. She's wild caught so I thought it could potentially be some sort of parasites she picked up or something?? Again... Any input on what this could be is VERY VERY much appreciated. also... should I help her get back onto her belly or leave her alone???

[Kettennatter]

What are you feeding her? Small fish?

[ErikBush97]

What are you feeding her? Small fish?

Yup.. Cloud Fish (no thiamine)
Really scared :(

[Kettennatter]

Yup.. Cloud Fish (no thiamine)
Really scared :(

Cloud fish are a kind of minnow, to my knowledge. So I would consier them suspect.

I'm not sure if this link is against the forum rules or not, but this is a very decent write-up:

All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php)

[Terranaut]

A snake on it's back is nothing silly. Your snake is knocking on deaths door. I hope you figure it out. What are your temps?

[Ourobouros]

All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php)

Also where were you advised those fish don't contain thiaminase? I have found no resources indicating whether white clouds are safe or unsafe....

Either way I'd call that reptile vet if I were you... Like.. Now

[Ourobouros]

Cloud fish are a kind of minnow, to my knowledge. So I would consier them suspect.

I'm not sure if this link is against the forum rules or not, but this is a very decent write-up:

All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php)

Lol I took so long saving my post you beat me to it =D

[Kettennatter]

The snake looks like one that is thiamine deficient. (No way to know for sure unless you are able to administer thiamine. The snake would recover quickly if it was thiamine deficient.) A vet is the safe bet.

[ErikBush97]

A snake on it's back is nothing silly. Your snake is knocking on deaths door. I hope you figure it out. What are your temps?

For the garter, a little higher than room temp since she's native and doesn't need extra heating. (around 75-80F) And I think the guy who replied before you was right. I think's it's thiaminase. The thing that's really bothering me about this, is I asked the guy at the pet store if they had any small feeders WITHOUT thiaminase and he, WITH 0% HESITATION, said "Cloud fish are fine for Garters! That's what we feed our Ball Pythons"... He said Cloud Fish so quickly that you'd think he had studied it and had been asked a million times before. Guess that's what I get for trusting someone who works with animals for a living...
The reason I said acting silly is because she often climbs on top of her hide, falls onto her back (3 inch drop, so it isn't going to cause any damage if she falls), and twirls her way back onto her belly. I thought she'd just flip right over... But she's still there. I am working on finding a ride to a vet, so now that I have a $100 vet bill, stop riding my *** about buying a thermostat.

[ErikBush97]

All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php)

Also where were you advised those fish don't contain thiaminase? I have found no resources indicating whether white clouds are safe or unsafe....

Either way I'd call that reptile vet if I were you... Like.. Now

The guy at the pet store. He said "Cloud fish are fine for Gartes" without ANY... A.N.Y hesitation as if he had researched it, and knew exactly what he was talking about.

[Kettennatter]

Erik, I don't blame you. There are plenty of websites who list minnows as safe, and they are safer than goldfish, yet obviously not safe. What you descibe sounds like thiamine deficency. A vet will be able to give the snake a shot of B1, if this is what it is. You could try to administer thiamine yourself, but it takes some experience.

I also believe that the temperatures are not a likely cause in this specific case.

[ErikBush97]

All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php)

Also where were you advised those fish don't contain thiaminase? I have found no resources indicating whether white clouds are safe or unsafe....

Either way I'd call that reptile vet if I were you... Like.. Now

I did... They said they could have me in tomorrow evening. I informed them that by the looks of it... the snake might not be alive tomorrow evening but that didn't seem to matter. The only vet that will see me today is in Washington (no buses go to Washington from here)

[ErikBush97]

again.. should I assist the snake on getting it back onto it's belly, or just let her be??

[ErikBush97]

I also believe that the temperatures are not a likely cause in this specific case.

I keep her at the recommended temps for a N.W Garter, though.

[Ourobouros]

Dude relax. I know you're frustrated and worried. Just do the best you can and get priorities taken care of first. No one here is dealing with this issue right now in person as you are at this very moment so it's easy for people to call you out for things in hind sight. Even if it's good advice and they care you have to do whatever is in your power to do and not let yourself feel helpless or put down. Your snake needs you to keep your cool and take control.

We're it possible I would help...but instead all I have are useless words. If i truly believed it was going to die and had to wait a day for a vet I'd get the thiamin supplement for it and follow the instructions on the posted link...

[Kettennatter]

The guy at the pet store. He said "Cloud fish are fine for Gartes" without ANY... A.N.Y hesitation as if he had researched it, and knew exactly what he was talking about.

And what is your point? What qualifications do you need to work at a pet store?

[ErikBush97]

Dude relax. I know you're frustrated and worried. Just do the best you can and get priorities taken care of first. No one here is dealing with this issue right now in person as you are at this very moment so it's easy for people to call you out for things in hind sight. Even if it's good advice and they care you have to do whatever is in your power to do and not let yourself feel helpless or put down. Your snake needs you to keep your cool and take control.

We're it possible I would help...

Thanks, man. I am just freaking a little. I am shaky, nervous, sad, etc. I love my snake and it looks like it's suffering... I can't handle that. :(

[Ourobouros]

The guy at the pet store. He said "Cloud fish are fine for Gartes" without ANY... A.N.Y hesitation as if he had researched it, and knew exactly what he was talking about.

I believed a friend he had the proof of insurance in his car when he let me drive it.. A mistake I shall never make again. I'm sorry this happened to you. :'(

[Kettennatter]

again.. should I assist the snake on getting it back onto it's belly, or just let her be??

The only thing you can do for the snake is to administer thiamine, IMHO. That's not easy. What is your experience level with snakes?

[brylecc1989]

NOBODY doubts your love for the snake man. It's terrible the snake is sick, and I really hope it pulls through. That being said, DO NOT TRUST PEOPLE AT PET STORES!! They usually care only about selling pets, or their own feeders, or whatever. Was this the same petstore that sold you the setup for your BP? Only for you to find out what they told you was mostly wrong. I freakin hate chain pet stores.

[Ourobouros]

Thanks, man. I am just freaking a little. I am shaky, nervous, sad, etc. I love my snake and it looks like it's suffering... I can't handle that. :(

I know... It's hard..

Best way to orient yourself in a situation like this is find out what stores are around you and what they carry for supplements... And is it safe for animals... Research on google like mad and do whatever is best based on that information. Hell... I'd call ANY reptile expert or vet for instructions even if they aren't in my state. I'd spam that phone until I got answers.

I promise you I'd be crying right now in your situation but something has to be done... If nothing else just keep an eye on your snake as much as possible until you get help.

[ErikBush97]

Well... After five-ten minutes or so of crying in the bathroom like a little kid, I am very sad to say that I lost her. It would not have been as hard on me, if she hadn't spent the last 30-60 minutes of her life struggling. I have not cried in years so I am in a pretty weird spot right now. Thank you guys for all of your support. R.I.P Sasquatch :'(

[brylecc1989]

Sorry Erik :(

[Lankyrob]

Sorry for your loss

[Ourobouros]

NOBODY doubts your love for the snake man. It's terrible the snake is sick, and I really hope it pulls through. That being said, DO NOT TRUST PEOPLE AT PET STORES!! They usually care only about selling pets, or their feeders, or whatever. Was this the same petstore that sold you the setup for your BP? Only for you to find out what they you told you was mostly wrong. I freakin hate chain pet stores.

Not all of the advice given by these stores are bad. The problem is inconsistency....they hire you based on your interest and experience with animals but set no guidelines as to how much is enough to be considered "experienced"

Also... This is from my own experience working at one.... Training to handle the animals in the store.? No. Being quizzed or instructed on care sheets? No. Most of the time I spent they're was cleaning fish tanks all day, selling dog training classes and helping people pick out products with very little information as you why they wanted/needed it. Yeah.. Very little time for the animals.. I had a hard time especially since we were under staffed... 2 people for the entire pet care/selling/upkeep job.... Stupid...

[Ourobouros]

I'm sorry........

[brylecc1989]

Obviously not every single employee that pet stores hire is going to be completely useless. I guess what I'm saying is I would never take the word of a pet store employee as solid advice that I didn't doubt was correct. If I do ask one of these people for help, you better believe im going to double and triple check what they said on the internet or with a source that I deem more knowledgeable/reliable/"consistent".

[Ourobouros]

Definitely. I'll be honest that the place I worked at was full of knowledgeable people and if they didn't know the answer they researched it with the precaution that they were not an expert. We had an in house vet so that helped. I was lucky for that. Unfortunately there are plenty of bad places out there. :-[

[KORBIN5895]

I feel terrible for your snakes.

[sweatshirt]

R.i.p... :(

[Ourobouros]

I feel terrible for your snakes.

I feel terrible you made this comment.... After what just happened.

You shouldn't make someone feel worse for a mistake they can't take back. He's in no need of a reminder right now.

[brylecc1989]

Korbin, even if you think this snake's death is 100% the owner's fault, couldn't you just wait like 5 minutes until you start talking sh*t? He didn't neglect the snake on purpose. He's obviously sad...don't be a jerk.

[ErikBush97]

And what is your point? What qualifications do you need to work at a pet store?

What does qualifications to work there have to do with it?.... The point is: he shouldn't have given advice, if he didn't know what he was talking about. This is the problem with SsnakeSs... Someone ALWAYS has to change the subject. I'm sure we'll be talking about cars, or computers, or measuring tapes pretty soon here...

[ErikBush97]

I feel terrible for your snakes.

I do, too.

[bcr229]

I am very sorry. You're getting some very harsh lessons in life all at once. We all make mistakes, the important thing is that we don't repeat them.

So, a word of advice: after you bury your garter, clean out everything in the tank and sell it on CL. Use the money to buy a thermostat for your BP, and since funds are tight and you have no way to get your animals to a vet quickly for an emergency, stick to keeping one snake for a while.

Yes, I went there, because I really don't want to read about another snake emergency.

[ErikBush97]

I am very sorry. You're getting some very harsh lessons in life all at once. We all make mistakes, the important thing is that we don't repeat them.

So, a word of advice: after you bury your garter, clean out everything in the tank and sell it on CL. Use the money to buy a thermostat for your BP, and since funds are tight and you have no way to get your animals to a vet quickly for an emergency, stick to keeping one snake for a while.

Yes, I went there, because I really don't want to read about another snake emergency.

Owning multiple snakes wasn't the problem. It was my lack of knowledge. I almost always research everything about my snakes, their food, and their care. The time I say "Oh, it's fine. the pet store guy said these don't have thiaminase in them." My snake dies. I am not blaming him. I am just saying it gave me false comfort for him to say that they were safe to feed to a snake. Again... There isn't even hard evidence that the snake passed away from Thiamine deficiency.

[bcr229]

Owning multiple snakes wasn't the problem.

I'm sorry but for you keeping animals of any kind is a problem. In your own words:
As I said in this thread already... I am 16 and have very limited funds :( AS SOON as I have the money, I am going to buy one! I have been buying things I need for my Ball when I have the money to buy said items, but again... I am 16 and jobless (looking, though). A thermostat is NEXT on my list, So I will order one shortly.

So, unless your folks are wiling to help (and I understand if they can't or won't, mine made me pay for my horse when I was your age, you want to talk about some $$$) then you need to rethink how you're going to make this work.

[ErikBush97]

then you need to rethink how you're going to make this work.

I am putting about 5 applications in a day. So I will get a job soon enough.

[Kettennatter]

What does qualifications to work there have to do with it?.... The point is: he shouldn't have given advice, if he didn't know what he was talking about. This is the problem with SsnakeSs... Someone ALWAYS has to change the subject. I'm sure we'll be talking about cars, or computers, or measuring tapes pretty soon here...

Erik. I feel sorry for your loss, I really do. The point is that you took advice from somebody who was not qualified to give advice. A pet store employee doesn't breed snakes. He sells them. His goal is to make snake ownership sound easy and get you out the door. (I know I'm stereotyping, but at the end of the day a pet shop is a business.)

I feel particularly bad because my own garter went through this and is alive today. So, anything I'm going to say will feel like a smartass comment, when it really isn't meant to be.

[Kettennatter]

[...] Again... There isn't even hard evidence that the snake passed away from Thiamine deficiency.

No, there is not. But you will never know for sure because thiamine was never administered in any form.

[Lupinus]

Sorry for your loss Erik. Probably needless to say, but if there's one thing we learn fast when keeping pets assume all pet store employees are idiots until the prove themselves otherwise. And even then, take whatever they say with a grain of salt. Do your own research, learn from multiple sources, and go in to the store armed with your own knowledge of what you need and want. Take some good out of this by using it as a learning experience for your other snake and your future pets.

As to some of you, Jesus Christ the kid just lost his pet. Offer some constructive advice sure, point out what he screwed up so he can learn something from it, but for crying out loud let his eyes dry out before you dog pile on him.

[brylecc1989]

This^^^^^^

[ErikBush97]

Sorry for your loss Erik. Probably needless to say, but if there's one thing we learn fast when keeping pets assume all pet store employees are idiots until the prove themselves otherwise. And even then, take whatever they say with a grain of salt. Do your own research, learn from multiple sources, and go in to the store armed with your own knowledge of what you need and want. Take some good out of this by using it as a learning experience for your other snake and your future pets.

As to some of you, Jesus Christ the kid just lost his pet. Offer some constructive advice sure, point out what he screwed up so he can learn something from it, but for crying out loud let his eyes dry out before you dog pile on him.

Thank you for the reply, to information, and for sticking up for me :) These guys really need lives or something. Honestly, they're not really getting to me, but it's still not cool that they're trying to intentionally make me feel bad.

[pdomensis]

Sorry for your loss Erik. Losing a pet stinks. As to the people criticizing, I don't get why the outrage. The snake was understandably special to Erik, but to anyone else on here, how is the loss of a captive bred garter any more tragic than the deaths of the fish it was eating?

[Valvaren]

I do lots of research and make sure everything is safe and okay and fine aka I asked one guy at the pet store and that was it.

Look dude, I've been you and I've seen many like you and I hate being a b**** to new people and normal I keep my nose out of things but... To say you research and researched and looked things up and that just yesterday this snake was 'healthy as can be' to now say she was not right for days and is now dead just screams that something is wrong.

You need to take a step back and learn to pace yourself. I agree with selling the tank and keep with the one BP, your 16,you have your whole life ahead of you and snakes aren't leaving the pet trade, get a job, go to school, wait till you have you life planned and you figure out college before bringing home a bunch of animals.

If your folks aren't going to help you now don't expect them to when college and junk is piled on top.

[Valvaren]

Sorry for your loss Erik. Losing a pet stinks. As to the people criticizing, I don't get why the outrage. The snake was understandably special to Erik, but to anyone else on here, how is the loss of a captive bred garter any more tragic than the deaths of the fish it was eating?



t was wild caught, he was feeding it 10 fish every two weeks and as of yesterday when we tried to correct the feeding issue the snake was healthy and fine and he had researched and double checks everything was perfect. Now it's been not right for days and has now passed on.

Also excuse my mistakes my tablet is terrible for editing.

[Ourobouros]

I do lots of research and make sure everything is safe and okay and fine aka I asked one guy at the pet store and that was it.

Look dude, I've been you and I've seen many like you and I hate being a b**** to new people and normal I keep my nose out of things but... To say you research and researched and looked things up and that just yesterday this snake was 'healthy as can be' to now say she was not right for days and is now dead just screams that something is wrong.

You need to take a step back and learn to pace yourself. I agree with selling the tank and keep with the one BP, your 16,you have your whole life ahead of you and snakes aren't leaving the pet trade, get a job, go to school, wait till you have you life planned and you figure out college before bringing home a bunch of animals.

If your folks aren't going to help you now don't expect them to when college and junk is piled on top.

I think we shouldn't plot out his life here...

[Valvaren]

I think we shouldn't plot out his life here...

Honestly?

No you know what, there is no point, I'm not planning his life I'm just trying to get him to think ahead before he goes bringing in more animals he might not be able to support.

You guys are cool brushing it under the rug and saying everything's okay instead of helping this kid realize where and what went wrong. Yeah he can say he knows but, saying he knows doesn't necessarily mean he actual does, like a kid saying sorry when he doesn't mean it. After this past week and can see him bringing home another animal tomorrow.

I wish his animals luck and hopefully there won't have to be any more threads of this kind any time soon.

[ErikBush97]

Honestly?

No you know what, there is no point, I'm not planning his life I'm just trying to get him to think ahead before he goes bringing in more animals he might not be able to support.

You guys are cool brushing it under the rug and saying everything's okay instead of helping this kid realize where and what went wrong. Yeah he can say he knows but, saying he knows doesn't necessarily mean he actual does, like a kid saying sorry when he doesn't mean it. After this past week and can see him bringing home another animal tomorrow.

I wish his animals luck and hopefully there won't have to be any more threads of this kind any time soon.

Actually I spend hours on several different forums, and on wiki, reading books on snakes, etc. Btw, I am waiting until my male Ball is about 900 g and then I will be purchasing a female. But.. I am young so I don't have a clue of what I am doing. The funny part is that I am probably smarter than the majority of adults here. Btw, I am about to start college in a couple months. If anyone paid attention to me, rather than ONLY paying attention to my mistakes... You'd learn a lot. Just saying. The majority of people who are instigating and being assholes here are grown adults.. I just find that funny. You're not being an ******* or anything, although you come off pretty rude at times. Whether or not you intend to. I just don't see the reason for all the commotion that goes on here... In Fact, I will probably find a different forum soon enough here. and it's not really fair to the creator of SsnakeSs if you think about it... The jerks on this site drive away members (Have had a couple members say they changed to a different forum for that exact reason.)

[Lupinus]

You guys are cool brushing it under the rug and saying everything's okay instead of helping this kid realize where and what went wrong. Yeah he can say he knows but, saying he knows doesn't necessarily mean he actual does, like a kid saying sorry when he doesn't mean it. After this past week and can see him bringing home another animal tomorrow.
I don't think anyone is saying it's cool to brush it under the rug, all that's being said is that it's not cool to dog pile on Erik five minutes after his snake dies. There is being constructive and civil, and then there is being a high and mighty jerk. I'm not saying that you were, but there were others who were showing their posterior. And I haven't seen anyone saying that pointing out where he fell short was an issue, just the ones that felt the need to be rude jerks.

[KORBIN5895]

First off I waited 12 minutes so according go you guys I guess I am above reproach.

For all of you bleeding hearts that don't like it here please go visit reptilesandparrots.com. They would love to cuddle with you and hear how terrible it was here but remember many of them are know it all's that can't be wrong, liars or animal killers.

[Lupinus]

First off I waited 12 minutes so according go you guys I guess I am above reproach.

For all of you bleeding hearts that don't like it here please go visit reptilesandparrots.com. They would love to cuddle with you and hear how terrible it was here but remember many of them are know it all's that can't be wrong, liars or animal killers.
Thank you for making my point for me.

[bcr229]

No you know what, there is no point, I'm not planning his life I'm just trying to get him to think ahead before he goes bringing in more animals he might not be able to support.
Thank you. Five of my current collection came from people who couldn't take care of their snakes any more due to personal issues. One of those is from a kid who is starting college this fall, living in the dorm, no snakes allowed, and his parents just didn't want to deal with it.

[KORBIN5895]

Thank you for making my point for me.

No worries. I already realized you were incapable.

[Lupinus]

No worries. I already realized you were incapable.
And in my short time here I noticed you were quite capable

[smy_749]

Just a quick question, is anyone here actually talking about anything anymore?

[brylecc1989]

LOL I was just gonna say, haven't heard from Erik in a while...

[slowhite03]

This is unbelievable. A kid, yes 16 is still a kid, is trying to help is pet snake. It was probably his first snake and we are sentencing him to death. I'm sure no one else here has bad housing or fed their snake something it shouldn't. Whether it was too small of mouse or to often. People, let the kid learn from his mistake and I'm sure the next snake he gets will be far better off from this learning mistake. So why don't we all just quit are bitching and saying he is a horrible persona nd just me him grieve for his loss

[Ourobouros]

I gave up on this lol. I'll wait until I'm at work tomorrow to get my daily dose of incompetence. At least there I get paid for it lol

[Terranaut]

I will get back on topic a bit here.
First off. You are not smarter than 1/2 of the people on here. Not even close to 1/2 of these people have had a snake die in their care. Also before condeming the site please realize that we gave you great advice about your ball python that you failed to follow. Yet here we are still sorry for your loss which is again due to poor care on your part. Don't hate people for caring for animals and who may be concerned about thewell being of animals who belong to someone who fails to listen . They are being firm but truthful.
Next time you think your smart remember this ....
Intelect without wisdom is the same as a gun without bullets.
So suck it up. Learn from it and move on. We will still be glad to help you with your royal but please follow the advice from now on, ok?

[Valvaren]

I will get back on topic a bit here.
First off. You are not smarter than 1/2 of the people on here. Not even close to 1/2 of these people have had a snake die in their care. Also before condeming the site please realize that we gave you great advice about your ball python that you failed to follow. Yet here we are still sorry for your loss which is again due to poor care on your part. Don't hate people for caring for animals and who may be concerned about thewell being of animals who belong to someone who fails to listen . They are being firm but truthful.
Next time you think your smart remember this ....
Intelect without wisdom is the same as a gun without bullets.
So suck it up. Learn from it and move on. We will still be glad to help you with your royal but please follow the advice from now on, ok?

Felt this was important enough to be repeated.

[LadyWraith]

^^ That. The truth of the matter is, people here are actually pretty tolerant compared to a lot of boards. Other places, he'd truly be ripped a new one. It's not the fact that he made mistakes... we all do that and people here understand that fact. Go check out some of the new member posts asking to fix incorrect husbandry. The regulars around here are more than willing to be helpful when asked for advice. The problem is, the OP has swamped the site with continuous husbandry questions, both BEFORE and after his purchase. He literally listened to 0 advice with his setup and feeding. Then comes back to ask why he's having issues. If the sunshine and rainbows group had read all of the posts/threads like some of us have, you'd understand the need for the "harshness" of their approach. We're not talking about a bunch of school yard bullies here... 1 animal has died and no one wants to see the other one suffer the same fate.

[hunter4life]

(and I understand if they can't or won't, mine made me pay for my horse when I was your age, you want to talk about some $$$)

I know exactly what you mean, I have two horses myself! plus my parrots and dogs and my snakes and lizard. And Erik I'm sorry Sasquatch died :( that is very sad to hear..