A Goodbye to Minnows

[Kettennatter]

A couple of days ago I noticed that my female garter was acting somewhat odd. She wasn’t moving in a straight line and was going through a corkscrew type of motion, which seemed less controlled at time progressed. Researching the issue I came across thiamine deficiency affecting garter snakes. I had primarily fed minnows until now, thinking that they contained little thiaminase, but obviously more than I thought.

I dusted tiny pieces of wild-caught salmon in thiamine and assist-fed the snake, placing the pieces in her mouth whenever I could. After 2-3 hours she seemed to be back to normal.

Both garters have not touched the salmon on their own, as they are now probably conditioned to take live fish. (Live fish were the one thing that I got the younger garter to feed on to begin with.) I now have to figure out what to try next, or simply wait them out.

[sweatshirt]

Hope she gets better :o & good luck.

[Kettennatter]

Hope she gets better :o & good luck.

Thank you, but she was fine yesterday. Now I just need to figure out what else to feed. (A good dose thiamine (vitamine B1) seems to work quickly.)

[bcr229]

According to Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet) feeder guppies are ok, but minnows and goldfish are not.

[Kettennatter]

According to Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet) feeder guppies are ok, but minnows and goldfish are not.

I've read elsewhere that people even had problems with feeder guppies. :( My garters have taken salmon a few times before, so I may just try to stick it out a this point.

[bcr229]

My garter eats f/t mouse pinkies. I had to start by scenting them with the nightcrawlers she had been eating. If yours needs the stimulation of a live feeder, maybe a live pinky scented with the fish will do the trick.

I should get a fresh salmon or tilapia filet for me, just to see if she'd take a little. Besides, it's an excuse for me to have a nice fish dinner. :D

[Ourobouros]

My garter eats f/t mouse pinkies. I had to start by scenting them with the nightcrawlers she had been eating. If yours needs the stimulation of a live feeder, maybe a live pinky scented with the fish will do the trick.

I should get a fresh salmon or tilapia filet for me, just to see if she'd take a little. Besides, it's an excuse for me to have a nice fish dinner. :D

I know sites recommend tilipia but... Um it's not really as good as we'd all like to think. Maybe it's okay for snakes but I know it's not that healthy for people so I'd limit that choice as food. Why is this? Because it's high in omega 6 fatty acids due to the way the fish are farmed... Often genetically modified so that they breed more females than males for population control... And being a farmed fish... It's sanitation is in question. I love tilapia but it's not safe to eat often. Just something I wanted to share just in case. I could be wrong about this being an issue with snakes... But..more info is better than less

[Kettennatter]

I have tried a scented f/t without much success. The older garter once took them, but it was a fight even then. I know that they once took salmon, and fortunately I have easy access to wild caught salmon. (I agree, I would be cautious about farmed fish.)

I could try guppies, but after what I've just been through, I'm a bit iffy about small freshwater fish.

[ErikBush97]

Thank you, but she was fine yesterday. Now I just need to figure out what else to feed. (A good dose thiamine (vitamine B1) seems to work quickly.)

I would say pinkies, but hell.. If you can you get a Garter to eat pinkies, you deserve an award.

[bcr229]

I know sites recommend tilipia but... Um it's not really as good as we'd all like to think. Maybe it's okay for snakes but I know it's not that healthy for people so I'd limit that choice as food. Why is this? Because it's high in omega 6 fatty acids due to the way the fish are farmed... Often genetically modified so that they breed more females than males for population control... And being a farmed fish... It's sanitation is in question. I love tilapia but it's not safe to eat often. Just something I wanted to share just in case. I could be wrong about this being an issue with snakes... But..more info is better than less
Thanks, I didn't know that. And it wouldn't be a staple, more like a once a month thing. I actually do prefer salmon though so will probably just stick with that.

[Akuma223]

The best thing to do is to try and get your garter to eat mice. I'm not sure how difficult that is because mine immediately took to eating mice.

[brylecc1989]

Glad you knew what to do and were able to help the poor little snakey!

[Kettennatter]

I would say pinkies, but hell.. If you can you get a Garter to eat pinkies, you deserve an award.

Depends on the garter. I might try the scenting, braining or chicken broth trick until something works. The older garter has a feeding response that allows it to bypass the tongs and go straight for my fingers. (I ended up using the same big tongs that I use for my BCI.)

The younger one never took to f/t. In fact, she only ever took salmon and live fish, starting with extensive trickery to make her strike in the beginning. Converting to salmon once hungry enough may be the easier route, even if that means having to feed supplements.

[Ourobouros]

Different garters specialize in certain prey items. A dumb statement that may be restating the obvious but food can vary even further than what's mentioned so far. Frogs, slugs, cut earth worms, lizards, other snakes, fish.. Just listing here. Frogs aren't too good for a number of reasons but look up what kind of garter prefers what I guess.

[Kettennatter]

Different garters specialize in certain prey items. A dumb statement that may be restating the obvious but food can vary even further than what's mentioned so far. Frogs, slugs, cut earth worms, lizards, other snakes, fish.. Just listing here. Frogs aren't too good for a number of reasons but look up what kind of garter prefers what I guess.

Agreed, but I have to overlay that with what is available to me and what type of food requires additional supplements. Mice are great because they provide complete nutrition and are readily available. Most small freshwater fish are now suspect. Salmon (by volume) is very inexpensive and readily available, but requires supplements. Some worms are possible, but would probably reuqire supplements. Frogs, slugs and earthworms are not always available to me.

Just as in the begining, I will have to experiment.

[Kettennatter]

Just a quick update: After back and forth between guppies and thawed wild caught salmon, I oddly ended up with earthworms and pinky mice. I'm not sure when and how they are eating them, but both the worms and F/T pinkies disappear. :cool:

I tried long and hard with guppies, but while they used to hit the minnows like crazy, they in turn would have nothing to do with the guppies.

And yes, my female garter is still doing fine.

[GarterGirl]

I've heard a few people say that rosy minnows and goldfish are stronger in scent and have more movement, so the snakes have a stronger response to them and basically get spoiled. You just have to keep trying with the guppies (though if you can get them, platys and mollys are supposed to be ok as well). Have you considered frozen silversides? My babies eat them pretty well (after working on converting them for a few months...)

[Kettennatter]

I've heard a few people say that rosy minnows and goldfish are stronger in scent and have more movement, so the snakes have a stronger response to them and basically get spoiled. You just have to keep trying with the guppies (though if you can get them, platys and mollys are supposed to be ok as well). Have you considered frozen silversides? My babies eat them pretty well (after working on converting them for a few months...)

No, I haven't considered silversides yet, thanks a lot for the suggestion. I will have to see if they are available locally. The theory about minnows having a stronger scent and more movement makes sense. Problem is that my younger garter was a slow feeder and I started her on minnows. But I do agree that I probably spoiled them. They used to take thawed salmon w/o a problem and now they won't touch it.

[GarterGirl]

No, I haven't considered silversides yet, thanks a lot for the suggestion. I will have to see if they are available locally. The theory about minnows having a stronger scent and more movement makes sense. Problem is that my younger garter was a slow feeder and I started her on minnows. But I do agree that I probably spoiled them. They used to take thawed salmon w/o a problem and now they won't touch it.
I'd go out and by some mollies or platies (larger, more colorful, stronger smell than guppies). Then, when you are feeding, put some frozen silversides in there with them. The garters will accidentally grab them as well as fish (especially if it's a smaller bowl you feed them in). This gets them used to the taste.
I've made a fairly diverse diet for mine- still do guppies and other live fish, as well as the silversides as the main staple. I offer cut worms on a weekly basis, and occasionally- F/T frog legs (de-boned, which can be a pain) when I can get them. Some of mine will take worms, some wont. Some love the frog, others can't stand it. All of them like the silvers and live fish, though.

Good luck on your picky eater!

[Kettennatter]

I'd go out and by some mollies or platies (larger, more colorful, stronger smell than guppies). Then, when you are feeding, put some frozen silversides in there with them. The garters will accidentally grab them as well as fish (especially if it's a smaller bowl you feed them in). This gets them used to the taste.
I've made a fairly diverse diet for mine- still do guppies and other live fish, as well as the silversides as the main staple. I offer cut worms on a weekly basis, and occasionally- F/T frog legs (de-boned, which can be a pain) when I can get them. Some of mine will take worms, some wont. Some love the frog, others can't stand it. All of them like the silvers and live fish, though.

Good luck on your picky eater!

They are slowly getting used to the guppies, taking more and more with each feeding. I will add the silversides to their diet fairly soon, thanks again for the suggestion.

I'd still like to get them to take pinkies, and they are rather spotty in that regard.

I'm just happy that my female garter with the previous B1 deficiency, who is also my picky eater, is now back to her old feisty self. It took me forever to feed her vitamin-coated pieces of salmon. And during that time, she just rested on my palm, which seems awfully passive for a garter.