View Full Version : Bad Shed Situation
Looking for some advice here - My pueblan milksnake, CiCi, is trying to shed but can't seem to. I have had her a year and she has shed many times before with no problem, but this is different. For about a month she has been showing the usual dullness, but now she is wrinkled and I picked her up today and she is so stiff! She also refused food I offered yesterday.
Normally she hides during the day, but now she can't even curl up to fit in her hide she is so stiff. Some scales are sticking out.
What I have done today is mist her terrarium, give her a much bigger water dish she can completely submerge in, with warm water. I picked her up (I don't normally handle her) and that was when I found out how stiff she was, and then placed her in the large water dish about an hour ago. She was still in there when I last checked. Anything else I can do?
lady_bug87
06-09-13, 10:23 AM
Stiff? Is she moving around in the water? Do you offer her a humid hide? I wouldn't leave her in water she can submerge herself in, especially if she seems lethargic or stiff?
Hopefully someone else can chime in...
Ourobouros
06-09-13, 11:11 AM
My baby kingsnake was shedding when I got her in the mail. She was very similar to what you described but yours seems more severe. Pet stores sell a emulsifier solution called shed aid. Mix according to bottle instructions in luek warm water... And soak your snake in it about 10-20 min. I did this every 2 days and misted the tank up to 40% humidity where through the day it would drop to 20% if I did not.
If it does not improve after a few days to a week (however long is normal for your snake to shed) then take to a vet.
Since I wrote the post a couple hours ago, she has moved out of the water and into her hide, so I guess her skin has become already more flexible, at least. She loves this little half coconut shell where she hid in when she was much smaller, and still always wants to go there, although I also supplied her with a larger hide on the other side of the terrarium. This larger hide has moist moss in it. I was hoping she would use the larger one, but I haven't seen her in it very much. She has a big terrarium and plenty of room to move around in.
I have never seen her where she was so stiff she basically couldn't move. Anyway, the condition is better at least where she can curl up in her old hide.
Stiff? Is she moving around in the water? Do you offer her a humid hide? I wouldn't leave her in water she can submerge herself in, especially if she seems lethargic or stiff?
Hopefully someone else can chime in...
Yes to the humid hide but I haven't seen her in it.
She got out of the water herself and has now moved into a small hide. I take that as a good sign. I was very alarmed to see how stiff she was when I picked her up earlier this afternoon. Almost like picking up a piece of wood - seemed like she could hardly move at all. Glad to say she appears to be improved a bit since she can now curl herself up to fit into the small hide.
slowhite03
06-09-13, 11:27 AM
You may just have to help her, soak her warm water for 20 minutes and then rub firmly around her body to see if you can break her skin.
Ourobouros
06-09-13, 11:28 AM
That's good. Glad to hear she's moving. I was so worried about my snake too when I saw crinkling along her body. Thankfully she got it all off though after 5 days. I know shipping stressed her out and my humidity was too low at first. Hopefully next shed will be easier.
Ourobouros
06-09-13, 11:30 AM
You may just have to help her, soak her warm water for 20 minutes and then rub firmly around her body to see if you can break her skin.
This could tear the new skin and cause lesions. I'd only do this if there are small pieces of dead skin but not the whole body.
lady_bug87
06-09-13, 12:57 PM
You may just have to help her, soak her warm water for 20 minutes and then rub firmly around her body to see if you can break her skin.
I second this as a terrible idea
StudentoReptile
06-09-13, 01:08 PM
One method I have used for trouble-shedders is: get a deli cup or appropriately-sized plastic container, put a warm/damp/moist paper towel, only poke 1-2 holes in the upper sides for air. Stick the snake in, mist a couple times with warm water, and close the lid. This is a quick fix until you can correct the habitat issues.
She is still back in her little hide with only her head sticking out. So she is all curled up, indicating some of her flexibility is back. Her skin still looks bad, but she is more responsive.
I couldn't believe how stiff she was when I picked her up several hours ago - seriously, like a piece of wood - normally she is lighting fast and so I was shocked.
I got something at the pet store that is supposed to help with shedding - it seems to be nothing more than liquid aloe vera - but I added some to her water. Hopefully she will go back in and soak some more.
Starbuck
06-09-13, 01:28 PM
you should make sure she has an UNADULTERATED bowl of water to drink from as well...
Ourobouros
06-09-13, 03:38 PM
Okay so this is what I did:
Mixed the liquid into room temperature water and I only deep enough in the plastic container so that my snake would be able to keep her head above water. I supervised the entire time and made sure she got an even soaking.. 10-20 min and it needs to be that long so the emulsifier can penetrate deep enough to separate the dead skin from the new. Then returned her to the tank and misted it up to 40%. I left her alone after that and a full day just misting regularly. 2nd day I gave her another bath. She managed to shed in pieces but did get through it after 5 days.
The skin should come off in one piece, so anything otherwise is cause for concern. My snake had trouble so I'll be vigilant like a hawk for each shed. After your snake sheds be sure to check the skin and that it has eye caps.. If there are holes... Check her eyes... Any part of the body with remaining skin should be addressed with another bath. Especially if the tail has skin left.. It can cause constriction which can make the tail die and fall off...
The emulsifier is superior to just a normal soak because it really loosens the dead skin. I felt the flap of skin on mine and it felt like an oversized sock I could pull off.. But I resisted lol.
Ourobouros
06-09-13, 03:43 PM
you should make sure she has an UNADULTERATED bowl of water to drink from as well...
Yes aloe vera can be toxic if swallowed.. I know this is the case in humans if too much is consumed but for a snake I'm sure it's not meant to be ingested.
If I put the regular water bowl with no aloe in there, chances are she would just soak in that one and forget about the larger bowl with the aloe.
The thing is, I have seen her soaking in that small bowl for quite a while, and she still ended up stiff as a board. Weird, huh?
Not sure if I should again put her in the large bowl for one more soaking today or just leave her be for the evening. Maybe mist the terrarium once more.
I guess what I did not realize was the necessity of misting. After all, I have had this snake for a year and did not have this kind of problem before.
Starbuck
06-09-13, 05:55 PM
Are you saying that you arent providing a bowl of drinking water, because you dont want her to soak in it when she should be soaking in the altered water?
Im sorry but drinking water is MUCH more important to your snakes hydration than a product to help her shed.
If she is going to soak in her regular waterbowl, Thats Fine (at least she is soaking).
If you are really set on using the product, i think you are better off mixing up a bath outside of the enclosure, and soaking her (supervised) for 15 minutes or so once/day.
No, I put the bowl of "unadulterated" drinking water back in. I put her in the bath with the aloe again this evening, but she didn't want to stay in it. Now I have just checked on her again and she is half in/half out of the "unadulterated" small water bowl.
My point was that she had been soaking in the regular water for some time now, and she still ended up stiff as a board.
Ourobouros
06-09-13, 07:46 PM
I think the most important thing to remember is if you know your snake well enough to know something isn't right even after doing all that you can.. A vet is your best option. I would honestly bathe the snake once a day and keep up the misting.. Just enough to maintain close today 40% and not to handle it outside of the baths.. It's uncomfortable for them when shedding. Check on the progress of the shed each day.. If no improvement at all after a few days... please seek a vet...
Also... When giving a bath.. If your snake isn't staying in it just use a large tupperware container and make sure she stays in.. You may have to hold her and reposition her body at times and that's okay if you're gentle. I personally made sure my snakes body got fully submerged with the exception of her head.
Concept9
06-11-13, 06:44 AM
I may have missed this but have you checked for mites.
Mites can cause dehydration, weaken your animal causing the symptoms above ?
I realized today that my problems only started when I moved the snake from the small plastic kritter keeper I had her in into a nice big exo-terra terrarium. While I thought she needed all the space, it appears that there is something about it that dried the heck out of her skin. This new terrarium is only about a foot away from the small plastic.
I got to thinking that maybe these milk snakes need or prefer a smaller enclosure or that the plastic holds humidity better. This is my first snake and I just don't know a lot about this.
She is still alive - I soaked her in a small plastic container overnight and then all day today. The skin still isn't off, but I put her back in her old cage with a rock as a rough surface against which I hope she will rub and get some of the softened skin off. She's not moving too much though, not enough to suit me. I hope she survives. It is just a shame that I didn't realize something was happening a lot sooner than I did.
Starbuck
06-19-13, 04:50 PM
i would put a humid hide in your tank (if you havnt already). This can be made from any appropriately size plastic food container & lid. The container should be small enough that the snake feels secure inside. Cut a hole slightly larger than the snake (1.5 times diameter or so?), and fill the container with moist paper towels, and close the lid. I place my humid hide on the warmer side, but others use the cooler side.
Basically you want to create a microhabitat that the snake can access as needed.
Have you consulted at all with a vet? Since the problem is still going on, it sounds like that may be in order. does your snake still eat?
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 05:28 PM
I would have gone to the vet by now if not even a little bit of skin has come off...
Snake has improved a little. She is still soaking in the water dish in the small cage. The skin looks wrinkled and ridged a little like its starting to come off. She is more responsive and moves a bit more.
I had tried the humid hide a couple of weeks ago. She did go into it but did not stay there.
Now her eyes look clear and I think there is not as much stiffness. I have not seen her with her mouth partially open as I had before.
Thanks to everyone for their input. This is a difficult time.
Terranaut
06-21-13, 05:09 AM
Yet another falls victim to the screen top enclosure.
I only scanned your thread so if I repeat what someone else said or missed something you said I am sorry.
If the snake sits in the water dish all day it is either dry or has mites. I suspect the first. Do you use a heat lamp? If so toss it and get a uth on a thermostat. Those tanks are great for looking at the snake but when you need humidity they can suck. Cover the screen top with either foil or a wet towel. You need to get the humidity up right away. Never put anything in your snakes water. Aloe and shed ease ect is not needed. Water is your friend. Keep it simple and fix your husbandry and your snake will be fine.
Good luck.
Ourobouros
06-21-13, 07:29 AM
After all this time I STILL think a vet should see the snake
Starbuck
06-21-13, 01:33 PM
i agree- see a vet. Can you post any pictures of the snake?
The same conclusion I arrived at Terranaut. All my problems started when I moved the snake into the screen top terrarium. That is why I moved her back to the old plastic kritter keeper. She did fine in there for almost a year - although its way too small for her. She isn't sitting in the water dish now, and I am hoping she will rub this old skin off soon. No more aloe product being used.
Ourobouros
06-23-13, 01:31 PM
A screen top cage is fine if you modify it, and provide a humid hide. Shed aid works in a pinch if the drying is too much for just water.
It's been 2 weeks... Your snake is still unable to shed.... please get it to a vet. Your snake's health is now at risk and it must be feeling pretty miserable...so I think it's too late to just see how it goes in its old tank...
ErikBush97
06-23-13, 11:10 PM
The same conclusion I arrived at Terranaut. All my problems started when I moved the snake into the screen top terrarium. That is why I moved her back to the old plastic kritter keeper. She did fine in there for almost a year - although its way too small for her. She isn't sitting in the water dish now, and I am hoping she will rub this old skin off soon. No more aloe product being used.
I have an idea. Stop being stubborn. Go to a vet. Every time anyone here suggests that, you completely disregard it. you don't even acknowledge what they're saying. Your snake could die, if you don't get it help... I recently had one of my animals die. It's not a good experience... I am very sorry to sound like a douche right now, but go to a vet... I have never heard of a snake showing these symptoms for 1 month + some. That's insane. That's like your puppy puking up blood for a month and you post on a forum asking what's going on. Again... I feel like a douche bag for being so straight forward/confrontational, but you really need to put your animal first right now.
formica
06-24-13, 10:44 AM
agree with the above, 6 weeks is far too long; goto the vet, today
Terranaut
06-24-13, 11:34 AM
A screen top cage is fine if you modify it, and provide a humid hide. Shed aid works in a pinch if the drying is too much for just water.
It's been 2 weeks... Your snake is still unable to shed.... please get it to a vet. Your snake's health is now at risk and it must be feeling pretty miserable...so I think it's too late to just see how it goes in its old tank...
Shed aid or shed ease is totaly not needed....ever.
Proper husbandry is the best. If that fails a warm bath with a soft cloth will work. If the shed will not come off after that go back and fix the husbandry and wait until next shed. A snake will not die from not shedding for 2 weeks. We had a member here remove 5sheds at once (if I remember correctly) from a rescued carpet. Again shed ease is a pet store ,newbie product nobody should waste there money on.
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=Terranaut;Shed aid or shed ease is totaly not needed....ever.
Proper husbandry is the best. If that fails a warm bath with a soft cloth will work. If the shed will not come off after that go back and fix the husbandry and wait until next shed. A snake will not die from not shedding for 2 weeks. We had a member here remove 5sheds at once (if I remember correctly) from a rescued carpet. Again shed ease is a pet store ,newbie product nobody should waste there money on.[/QUOTE]
When my snake came in the mail she was starting to shed and when I used the shed aid she was done in a day. It does help but I hope to never need it again.
Now I have modified my screen top tank and my snake successfully shed last night.
I'm about getting timely results , not letting it get to 5 sheds at once.
Disagree all you want. I do what works and prefer not to allow my animals to suffer.
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 02:00 PM
Shed aid or shed ease is totaly not needed....ever.
Proper husbandry is the best. If that fails a warm bath with a soft cloth will work. If the shed will not come off after that go back and fix the husbandry and wait until next shed. A snake will not die from not shedding for 2 weeks. We had a member here remove 5sheds at once (if I remember correctly) from a rescued carpet. Again shed ease is a pet store ,newbie product nobody should waste there money on.
Death can occur from shed issues. If the tip didn't shed or any other part it can cut off circulation.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/elaphe-guttata-guttata/83077-dead-skin-corn-snake-tail-2.html
Terranaut
06-24-13, 03:22 PM
When my snake came in the mail she was starting to shed and when I used the shed aid she was done in a day. It does help but I hope to never need it again.
Now I have modified my screen top tank and my snake successfully shed last night.
I'm about getting timely results , not letting it get to 5 sheds at once.
Disagree all you want. I do what works and prefer not to allow my animals to suffer.
Honestly? Did you try water first? Oh yeah. It is the main active ingredient in that stuff. There is aloe in there too. I wonder how many snakes smear aloe on themselves when dry? Or the preservatives and crap. The funny part is the instructions say to add it to water and give a 20 min soak. Any snake will shed after a 20min soak in good old fashioned water. But hey if you want to drop cash on something that does nothing so be it. But do not come on here and advocate a product that does not work. Whats next ? Are you going to tell me how great mineral oil works at killing mites?
I also forgot to add that snakes do not enjoy having crap put all over them to look like you armoralled them.
Not knowing something is one thing but preaching false, wrong information is a bad practice. Be sure to know before you support ideas. This one being a bad idea....and us who are in the know do not let our snakes suffer...they shed without needing help in the first place.
Death can occur from shed issues. If the tip didn't shed or any other part it can cut off circulation.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/elaphe-guttata-guttata/83077-dead-skin-corn-snake-tail-2.html
Never in 2 weeks. Where do you get this stuff??
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 03:54 PM
I did try water first. No good. Again do what you want. I do what is best for my animals. I have no issues with trying what I know works rather than take advice from someone who nonchalantly brushes off shedding issues.
Terranaut
06-24-13, 03:58 PM
I did try water first. No good. Again do what you want. I do what is best for my animals.
That's the whole point. I don't "do what I want" ,I do what's right and what your telling everyone is not "what is best for your animals" I encourage you to look up product reviews on shed ease. Lol!!! Go ahead and tell me some more "facts" ;)
Mark Taylor
06-24-13, 04:20 PM
This part made me laugh.
I have no issues with trying what I know works rather than take advice.
Terranaut is right water is all you need to help snakes shed that's why humidity is so important to get right we help the snakes shed by bumping up the humidity when we notice the snake going into shed, but if you don't notice that stage the water bowl should be big enough to soak.
I know you said it work because it worked for you but is was more likely the fact that added water and a 20 minute soak assisted.
KORBIN5895
06-24-13, 05:15 PM
@op
Your snake is severely dehydrated and a few soaks won't help at this point. If you go to a vet they will rehydrate the snake.
The best way to help a stuck shed is proper husbandry. After that warm water (80°f-85°f). I have only ever had two bad sheds.
smy_749
06-24-13, 05:29 PM
Its pretty easy to solve stuck shed, and I agree with terr that your wasting your money on that shed crap. Its like saying 'Weight loss t-shirt. Just put it on and jog 5 miles daily and you will see results in weeks" .....
Proper husbandry is number one, and if its really really bad, usually a nice long soak in warm water and something in his enclosure to rub on is all you need.
The BP I received a week ago had atleast 2 layers of stuck shed for almost his entire body. He was stiff like a toy snake.....worst I've seen I think. 20 minute bath he had ALL of the shed off by morning.
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 06:26 PM
I think it's very nasty that some of you reword my posts. I do what works and what is best gets translated into "I do what I want"? WTF? I'm done trying to help. Numerous posts, myself included, telling the OP to see a vet and she doesn't listen. I'm out.
Terranaut
06-24-13, 07:43 PM
I think it's very nasty that some of you reword my posts. I do what works and what is best gets translated into "I do what I want"? WTF? I'm done trying to help. Numerous posts, myself included, telling the OP to see a vet and she doesn't listen. I'm out.
Nobody is hoping you leave, just stop posting inacurate information like it's fact. Nobody reworded anything you said. I just quoted it.
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 09:43 PM
This part made me laugh.
Terranaut is right water is all you need to help snakes shed that's why humidity is so important to get right we help the snakes shed by bumping up the humidity when we notice the snake going into shed, but if you don't notice that stage the water bowl should be big enough to soak.
I know you said it work because it worked for you but is was more likely the fact that added water and a 20 minute soak assisted.
I did try water first. No good. Again do what you want. I do what is best for my animals. I have no issues with trying what I know works rather than take advice from someone who nonchalantly brushes off shedding issues.
As you can see this was out of context
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 09:43 PM
I did try water first. No good. Again do what you want. I do what is best for my animals. I have no issues with trying what I know works rather than take advice from someone who nonchalantly brushes off shedding issues.
That's the whole point. I don't "do what I want" ,I do what's right and what your telling everyone is not "what is best for your animals" I encourage you to look up product reviews on shed ease. Lol!!! Go ahead and tell me some more "facts" ;)
And again. Reworded
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 09:49 PM
I thought I'd benefit from going to a forum to learn and discuss just as much as sharing my experience. I'm not ever saying I'm an expert but when faced down by a bunch of immature "experts" I only get frustrated. I'll just forget about posting at all here since I'm clearly not benefitting from this place. I'll just talk to people who know how to respect others. F*** off goodnight. I'm leaving the entire forum congratulations.
Amadeus
06-24-13, 09:52 PM
I thought I'd benefit from going to a forum to learn and discuss just as much as sharing my experience. I'm not ever saying I'm an expert but when faced down by a bunch of immature "experts" I only get frustrated. I'll just forget about posting at all here since I'm clearly not benefitting from this place. I'll just talk to people who know how to respect others. F*** off goodnight. I'm leaving the entire forum congratulations.
BahhhhhhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaH
Sorry
I bet he'll still be lurking here when he realizes this forum is one of the better ones in terms of being nasty and snide.
KORBIN5895
06-24-13, 11:42 PM
I thought I'd benefit from going to a forum to learn and discuss just as much as sharing my experience. I'm not ever saying I'm an expert but when faced down by a bunch of immature "experts" I only get frustrated. I'll just forget about posting at all here since I'm clearly not benefitting from this place. I'll just talk to people who know how to respect others. F*** off goodnight. I'm leaving the entire forum congratulations.
Thanks. I really appreciate the fact that you're leaving. Your uninformed posts were really getting old.
Terranaut
06-25-13, 03:33 AM
Ourobouros- nothing was taken out of context or reworded. That's why it is called quoting. Nobody other than you gave bad advice or failed the op by giving bad direction. You shot down the real advice as if it was " from someone who nonchalantly brushes off shedding issues."
If your not enjoying this ,then don't say :
Shed ease is better than water
Go see a vet and spend lots of money instead of using water
Feed your snake every 4 days (yet another thread)
Your snake can die from a shed within 2 weeks
Your snake will suffer impaction from substrate injestion
Need I go on? Why tell us off when it was you giving bad advice as fact.
Nobody told you to give bad advice or to tell off people who are ttying to stop others from doing all of this dumb crap. So if you feel the need to leave , fine. Save us from correcting your mistakes but maybe if you put your pride away you will realize this was all you and that people on here know more than you think you know. Isn't that why you came in the first place?
Mark Taylor
06-25-13, 03:55 AM
Ourobouros.
I did not reword I simply hi lighted the part of your text and deleted the rest, I said it made me laugh because if you new it worked you would not have been trying it.
I will add that I am not an expert but I do use what I have learnt and try to help that way. I have been wrong in the past and I am pretty sure I will be wrong again. When someone with far more experience is correcting me I don't disregard the advice I take it on the chin and learn from it. There is so much wrong info on the net but if you use common-sense some things are obvious.
Like water is all you need for a bad shed.
I have not had any problems with any of my snakes but I would have if I had not joined this forum and listened to good advise on other peoples posts as well as my own.
If you still have a problem with what I said PM me.
ErikBush97
06-25-13, 04:30 AM
BahhhhhhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaH
Sorry
I bet he'll still be lurking here when he realizes this forum is one of the better ones in terms of being nasty and snide.
I am on several Reptile forums and I have never expienced any abuse like this... And he has a vagina, btw. I have dealt with a few trolls thinking they are funny here and there on all forums, but I have never been treated like this by ANYONE in ANY of forum, or website at all. They have moderators here, correct??? Where the **** are they? They aren't even tryong to keep this site clean. What if a young kid joins to find out about reptiles.... Not a very good enviroment for a child or anybody, in fact...
Terranaut
06-25-13, 04:59 AM
Moderators are not here to ensure peoples feelings are not hurt.
It frusterates people on here who know what they are talking about when they give advice to do one thing, and the person does something else. Then they come on here and ask for more advice. Then there are others who give wrong advice that causes people who take it to come on here asking how to fix it. Both of these situations can be very upsetting if all you care about is the person with the question helping their animal. In the end your snakes well being is more important to us than your feelings.
ErikBush97
06-25-13, 05:23 AM
Moderators are not here to ensure peoples feelings are not hurt
Do you read the agreements you agree to before agreeing to them??? You should really start.Thre are forums rules. Moderators are here to enforce those rules, correct? I believe abusong other users is against the forum rules... You should learn what you're talking about before going "I M EXPERT. I NO WAT IM SAEENG DERP DERP." sorry to be a ****. But you obviously have no problem being one. I must say agreeing to terms you haven't read is a horrible idea. That's how you get scammed. 5+ years in computer repair - programming. Someone could REALLY screw you over that way.
KORBIN5895
06-25-13, 06:36 AM
Erik, you are psychotic.
The rules also say profanity isn't allowed but that hasn't stopped you.
Please stop being a self-righteous prick. You were wrong. You threw everyone's advice back in their face and your snakes are paying the price. Go follow your cuddle buddy and find a new place to post.
I think I already gave you a forum that will welcome you with open arms and congratulate you on your pathetic husbandry practices right up until you kill your snake. They will then congratulate you on your next acquisition and crappy husbandry. Run along now and go frolic with some other bleeding heart morons.
Terranaut
06-25-13, 07:07 AM
I read the terms...but unlike you I understood them. I never claimed to be an expert. I only gave you sound advice you chose not to follow. If you found iy was bad advice please feel free to post that and why. This is how the forum works. We debate stuff and share best practices with each other. When this is shared with you and you ignore but later ask for more help people tend to get upset and feel they are wasting their time. Nobody here abused you...they tried to set you straight...which you ignored...then you come back with crap like this? All we did was try to help you. You derped. Not me. The other guy gave out bad info and when called on it they gave the source but after watching it you migjt see they are not even following that. Typically I am not as blunt as other but I have to agree. Both of you can buzz off now or suck it up, admit your mistakes and start again. Maybe this time try listening and not reacting.
Amadeus
06-25-13, 09:41 AM
Do you read the agreements you agree to before agreeing to them??? You should really start.Thre are forums rules. Moderators are here to enforce those rules, correct? I believe abusong other users is against the forum rules... You should learn what you're talking about before going "I M EXPERT. I NO WAT IM SAEENG DERP DERP." sorry to be a ****. But you obviously have no problem being one. I must say agreeing to terms you haven't read is a horrible idea. That's how you get scammed. 5+ years in computer repair - programming. Someone could REALLY screw you over that way.
Obviously you didn't..... lolol
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