ready made sleeping hides for Savs

[formica]

I am becoming more attached to the idea of a sealed box of some kind, instead of a large soil burrowing area; currently designing my final savs final enclosure, sav's like dead tree stumps to live in when given the oppertunity in the wild, if the conditions are right inside, so the idea to create a hide, inside a sealed box is quite appealing for a few reasons. a reasonable length tunnel connecting the main outdoor space with the hide, so it feels secure, and protectable, by the Sav. lots of substrate and very careful control of humidity and tempretures, plus the ability for me to get inside the burrow without too much disruption to its enviroment, should the need arise, seems to me like a good idea.

My idea so far:

size - not decided, how big do they like it at full size? perhaps I should build in a way to gradually increase its size, if it prefers something snug fitting

So as a start, a large thick black plastic, possibly water tank of size TBC...

on the bottom 6inches of clay aggregate (balls that hold moisture), filled with water approx 0.5-1inch above the balls, and maintained at the same level via either a gravity pump, or manually. this water may also be heated via an aquarium tank heater to provide the required temps and humidty in the burrow, if required. then covered with a metal grill so he cant dig into aggregate and get to the water heater (its glass, def dont want him chomping on that!).

on top of that, foot of soil, with the bottom 0.5-1inch in the water below, to absorb moisture, emulating water table in wild, and bringing warmth from below into the burrow if the heater is needed, and then another 6 inches of sphagnum moss on top of that for even more humidity and for it to nose around in or move about and make the space more comfortable.

Humidity and Temperature sensors inside so things can be adjusted as needed.

The idea behind a prebuilt hide as apposed to the other options (like a huge soil filled burrow) is about access and cleaning, in the wild a monitors burrow will be kept clean by the crustaceans that live alongside it, aswell as the fact that in the wild although Humdity levels are high, air movement is also high, so things dont stagnate in the same way they can in a tank, producing molds and fungi which might not be good.

so I would like to for eg be able to change the moss every once in a while, and make sure theres no nasty molds growing due to the low air movement and high temp/humidity. Also means i dont have to dig it out if I'm concerned about his health for any reason.

So whats peoples thoughts, besides the removing of natural behaviour of burrowing, which has been covered many times before of course! If I choose this route, I will provide oppertunities for digging, for eg and area to dig up the occasional juice fat beetle grub or the odd snake egg nest (fertilized quail eggs not snake eggs)

will this solution present any other issues anyone can forsee? I certainly dont intend on opening his home up more than once every few months to inspect and clean, if that.

[infernalis]

I never thought I would see anyone more obsessed with over thinking things than myself.

Personally, My observations line up with those of several other people whom I trust...

Savannah Monitors are excavators by trade. The tunnel network inside my enclosure is a dynamic structure, those lizards are always digging here and there, every once in a while a new hole will open up and almost as quickly it will be sealed over so well it's almost impossible to tell it was ever there.

I just don't honestly think there is anything on earth that could be better for them than a big old fashion pile of dirt.

Here is my logic on the subject:

It has been said more than once that Savannah Monitors in the wild are very difficult to spot and document during all but the breeding season and hatching season. (Source Daniel Bennett & others)

This is apparent by the utter lack of photographs and footage unless trackers dug up a burrow. I have been scouring the web looking for anything, and have found one "tourist" who got some photos of one animal, another "tourist" who filmed a Bosc in a tree, and Daniel Bennett's photos, that's it.. no others yet.

So where are these millions of lizards living in the wild?? down in the ground, that's where.

Savannah Monitors are not the most graceful swimmers, climbers or runners. In fact those areas seem to be something they are rather clumsy at.

However, they can dig with the power of a backhoe, the speed of a drill and the grace of a landscaper.

This tells me that the most likely exercise they get is digging and excavating.

Another reason why I feel the humidity of the soil is important, and constant nonfluctuating environmental parameters are important too.

Think about this, even the coldest parts of the world have a frost line, the depth where freezing ends and stable temperatures begin.

This also applies with heat, at a certain depth, the ground temperature will be extremely stable, meaning that a wildfire can blow right on by overhead, and barely raise the burrow temperature at all.

I would love nothing more than to confirm that by going to Africa and measuring burrow depths of 100 burrows and compare the data. I am willing to bet a certain degree of consistency throughout regions.

Other data I would collect:

soil PH readings, Burrow temps, burrow humidity, soil nitrogen content & natural nesting preferences.

[formica]

haha :P yes i think allot - but i would rather spend this time checking all my facts and peoples experiences, and get the build right first time round, rather than have to start again, or modify - The issue of having to dig up the burrow in an 'emergancy' or whatever is a major issue for me, as is the condition of the burrow underground, which the monitor doesnt have control over

PH is something I hadnt considered, a quick check seems to suggest much of Ghanas soil is on the acid side, this would support some of the plants I know that come from the region, will find out more.

Nitrogen content is another interesting point, esp in terms of molds and fungi that might grow in the nest - which again leads onto other organisms in the soil which may stabilise things in the wild, but destabilize in captivity

Burrow temps and Humidity seems to have been covered in most threads, ie 90%+ humidity, min of 22C - this part at least, is easy to deal with, with the setup above, aswell as the traditional free-range burrow

I agree on the point of digging providing exercise, I do plan on giving him plenty to do, including digging up 'egg nests' and oversized beetle grub treats in shallower soil areas either way, and enough space to chase insects around at a good speed. - hmm need to find out more about this, coz in all fairness, even an 8x4x4 soil area isnt a huge amount of earth to shift over the life time of a monitor? in the wild, how many burrows do they make, or do they just make one and hope another bigger monitor doesnt steal it? or maybe they make a new one every year, or every few...? or never

Natural nesting preferences seem to vary a bit, from reports I've read around the web, they are opportunistic in the wild, taking over burrows of other animals, aswell as dead trees, under rocks near streams/rivers and other places they can attain their required sleeping enviroment, aswell as the burrows they dig for themselves - discovered that savanna monitor meat is a staple part of diet around west africa because they can easily be caught during rainy season

digging them up for tourists pisses me right off - espcially as some of the vids i've seen on youtube are blatantly doing it during dry season, when it needs to conserve energy and moisture, not be waved about in the sun and then have to find a new burrow, no matter how good diggers they are, they are going to loose allot of water and energy digging thru rock hard dry season soil!

Could the lack of tourist/wild images, be down to the fact that tourists dont generally go on holiday in the wet seasons, when the monitors are active? not many scientists are going to want to spend their time in the mosquito infested wet season either, unless sav's are off some particular interest to science, which i dont think they are; shame, esp with the apparent surge in interest by hobbyist keepers, and the amazingly bad care hatchlings seem to get from allot of people!

[Pirarucu]

Why only one foot? While you could get by with a foot if you have a male, if you have a female you will probably want to give her more options to bury her eggs.
It's worth noting that in the wild, DB observed that their average burrow depth was about a foot down. However, when you consider that the average Sav in the wild is a mere two feet long, and females are sexually mature at less than eleven inches long. (Also according to DB.) In comparison, Savs in captivity are giant. Three or four foot specimens are common, some males have even topped four feet. So, you can begin to see why the idea of at least two feet of substrate is usually suggested.
Wayne is right about the lack of available pictures or videos of wild Savannah Monitors, Daniel Bennett's website alone probably houses half of the pictures and videos we have..

Here are some others I have come across, in all my searching: Four photos, of two Savs, one of which appears to be somewhat dehydrated.
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8155/7177474352_ca2e6b1e70_o.jpg
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8021/7177474872_1a2f6aaaef_o.jpg
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7177473964_f5678f6e3a_o.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7231/7177473632_5d4cd9a4e9_b.jpg

[franks]

My personal observations line up with wayne's. These guys make their own hides. I just built a new enclosure for my lizard and stocked it with so many really cool hides and burrows. I propped Up rocks, logs, tree stumps, you name it, and started burrows under them to encourage him. 3 days later, all of my hides and burrows were closed up, and he made his own right in the middle of the enclosure.

[formica]

Why only one foot? While you could get by with a foot if you have a male, if you have a female you will probably want to give her more options to bury her eggs.
It's worth noting that in the wild, DB observed that their average burrow depth was about a foot down. However, when you consider that the average Sav in the wild is a mere two feet long, and females are sexually mature at less than eleven inches long. (Also according to DB.) In comparison, Savs in captivity are giant. Three or four foot specimens are common, some males have even topped four feet. So, you can begin to see why the idea of at least two feet of substrate is usually suggested.
Wayne is right about the lack of available pictures or videos of wild Savannah Monitors, Daniel Bennett's website alone probably houses half of the pictures and videos we have..

Here are some others I have come across, in all my searching: Four photos, of two Savs, one of which appears to be somewhat dehydrated.
]]

RE 1ft of soil, the soil is not really for digging around in, its just a way to bring up moisture into the box from the 'water table' below, which would then have a suitable amount of space for it to sleep on top of the soil replicating the inside of a burrow, at the right temp and humidity - and a tunnel leading into the area, to provide the illusion that he is entering an underground burrow - monitors being well known for burrow stealing i dont think this is too much of an issue

awsome pics btw, thanks!

and interesting info, I understood the size diffrence between captive and wild specimins, I have no interest in raising a monster tbh, just to give it a healthy and fulfulling life, and I do have some concerns over the idea of 365 days of rainy season level feeding all its life


i'm not suprised they are dehydrated in those pics if its dry season or rains only just starting, or drought, hell to many reasons why it could be dehydrated lol any indication of the time of year they where taken?

[franks]

]

RE 1ft of soil, the soil is not really for digging around in, its just a way to bring up moisture into the box from the 'water table' below, which would then have a suitable amount of space for it to sleep on top of the soil replicating the inside of a burrow, at the right temp and humidity - and a tunnel leading into the area, to provide the illusion that he is entering an underground burrow - monitors being well known for burrow stealing i dont think this is too much of an issue

awsome pics btw, thanks!

and interesting info, I understood the size diffrence between captive and wild specimins, I have no interest in raising a monster tbh, just to give it a healthy and fulfulling life, and I do have some concerns over the idea of 365 days of rainy season level feeding all its life


i'm not suprised they are dehydrated in those pics if its dry season or rains only just starting, or drought, hell to many reasons why it could be dehydrated lol any indication of the time of year they where taken?

I do not think you are understanding something. The natural life of a Savannah monitor is not something you want to entirely replicate. These lizards are from one of the harshest climates on earth. During most of the year, they can only be out looking for food in very small spurts, because of the harshness of their climate. The older (bigger) the lizard gets, the more time it can spend looking for food without getting baked. The rainy season is the exception, the only season in which they can freely roam around foraging. The idea is to make our pet comfortable. The only time Savannah monitors are really comfortable and free in the wild is the rainy season. You should pick up Bennett's book, I think you will enjoy it. He has spoken on the need to improve the enviornment, not try to replicate it. If you properly support your monitor, it will grow more than a wild one.

[formica]

I do not think you are understanding something. The natural life of a Savannah monitor is not something you want to entirely replicate. These lizards are from one of the harshest climates on earth. During most of the year, they can only be out looking for food in very small spurts, because of the harshness of their climate. The older (bigger) the lizard gets, the more time it can spend looking for food without getting baked. The rainy season is the exception, the only season in which they can freely roam around foraging. The idea is to make our pet comfortable. The only time Savannah monitors are really comfortable and free in the wild is the rainy season. You should pick up Bennett's book, I think you will enjoy it. He has spoken on the need to improve the enviornment, not try to replicate it. If you properly support your monitor, it will grow more than a wild one.

I dont agree I'm afraid - I am certainly not talking about putting undue stress on them, but I do believe that replicating the enviroment they have evolved to survive in is an important factor to consider.

Bigger does not mean better, healthier, or more comfortable for the creature, necessarily.

Infact in many species of animal, not having the opportunity to hibernate/aestivate/etc is detrimental to its health.

I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate - temprete winters for eg. (ie norther US, canada, most of europe etc and equivilant latitudes south of the equator); until the invention of the super-market, every animal on this planet had adapted to eat mostly during the summer, and whatever it could store over winter - now look at us, a world of over weight predetors eating ourselves to death ;) as I said in the other thread about hibernation, fasting/dormancy can trigger DNA repair; various recent studies have shown. google if you are interested, sum fascinating stuff re human dna repair after fasting

[franks]

I dont agree I'm afraid - I am certainly not talking about putting undue stress on them, but I do believe that replicating the enviroment they have evolved to survive in is an important factor to consider.

Bigger does not mean better, healthier, or more comfortable for the creature, necessarily.

Infact in many species of animal, not having the opportunity to hibernate/aestivate/etc is detrimental to its health.

I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate - temprete winters for eg. (ie norther US, canada, most of europe etc and equivilant latitudes south of the equator); until the invention of the super-market, every animal on this planet had adapted to eat mostly during the summer, and whatever it could store over winter - now look at us, a world of over weight predetors eating ourselves to death ;) as I said in the other thread about hibernation, fasting/dormancy can trigger DNA repair; various recent studies have shown. google if you are interested, sum fascinating stuff re human dna repair after fasting

Cool, can you link me? I would enjoy reading that.
"I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate" - Can you explain this? In my opinion, it is not even debatable. Again, I would reference you to Bennett's book. He writes extensively on the harshness of their climate. He is not the only person in the world to know about Savannah Monitors, but nobody has spent the time studying them in the wild that he has and I think that separates his info from "the group." It is impossible to discuss monitor husbandry without having to reference stats or knowledge that he discovered, and in my opinion that is worth something.

Edit: Regarding providing the environment they evolved in: Humans have adapted to live in harsh conditions, but that does not make every condition optimal. I think there is absolutely a difference between surviving and thriving.

[formica]

Cool, can you link me? I would enjoy reading that.
"I would also disagree about it living in a harsh climate" - Can you explain this? In my opinion, it is not even debatable. Again, I would reference you to Bennett's book. He writes extensively on the harshness of their climate. He is not the only person in the world to know about Savannah Monitors, but nobody has spent the time studying them in the wild that he has and I think that separates his info from "the group." It is impossible to discuss monitor husbandry without having to reference stats or knowledge that he discovered, and in my opinion that is worth something.

Ok what I ment by 'not a harsh climate' is that temprate regions, like the UK for eg. also go thru extreme tempreture changes, which causes animals to hibernate or become dormant. in the same way that dry/wet seasons cause similar effects along the equator.

Its not about protecting a monitor from what we percieve to be a harsh climate imo, the enviroment is no more harsh than the one I grew up in, reletivly speaking, its about keeping the monitor healthy and giving it a good quality of life - whether or not the quality of life for a monitor living in a humid lush savanna landscape 365 days a year is better than one which doesnt, is debatable, without hard facts about the changes which occour in their physiology and how important those changes are to its health.

Search thru google on studies relating to IGF-1 hormones in humans, and the way they change our bodies during times of fasting (which in our hunter-gather days would have occoured very frequently) - fraid there are far too many links on the subject for me to filter out the ones to send you, but that is the hormone that is important in relation to DNA repair and fasting (ignore the articals about fad diets, there are some key peer-reviewed scientific articals on the subject)

[franks]

@formica, I have to add, I am so surprised at how pleasantly and respectfully you manage to dissagree with people lol. I think I said this to you before, but again, good for you. Frequenting this forum, I expect a brawl if somebody's post is challenged. It is fun discussing these topics like adults for once.

[franks]

But Savannah Monitors have not adapted to the extremities that the harsh climate presents. They cannot deal with the intense arid heat, that is why they hide constantly from it, coming out quickly and briefly to avoid starvation before retreating again. If it were not for the "wet season" these lizards would most likely not even exist in these regions. They cling on living a far less then ideal life (by their required standards) until one season gives them a respite; a chance to breed, eat freely, and survive. They, like all animals, have requirements. Most of the year, their requirements are barely met by their environment. For a brief part of the year, their requirements seem met in full and they thrive. Savannah Monitor husbandry is based on this for the most part.

Edit: Furthermore, it is only their burrows that permit them to cling on during the harsh seasons, an aspect of husbandry that ironically you are seeking to cut-out.

[formica]

@formica, I have to add, I am so surprised at how pleasantly and respectfully you manage to dissagree with people lol. I think I said this to you before, but again, good for you. Frequenting this forum, I expect a brawl if somebody's post is challenged. It is fun discussing these topics like adults for once.

haha must be my age, was not always like that, but thanks! I love a good discussion, best way to learn imo, and I'm an amateur when it comes to Monitors, so your input is valued, even if i disagree at the time...the more info we can gather together, the more pieces of the puzzle fit into place and the better we can look after our monitors :bouncy:

I wish bosc monitors had some really good scientific research going on, doesnt seem to be anything really at all, they are just food, belts or pets to the scientific community which is a major shame - i wonder if london zoo has any hmm

[franks]

Amazon.com: The Savannah Monitor Lizard: The truth about Varanus exanthematicus. eBook: Ravi Thakordyal, Daniel Bennett: Kindle Store (http://www.amazon.com/Savannah-Monitor-Lizard-exanthematicus-ebook/dp/B007SF988K/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370619186&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=the+truth+about+veranus+exanthematicus)

$5 USD you can download it to your phone. I agree it is sad about the lack of scientific research. This book contains just about all that exists.

[formica]

But Savannah Monitors have not adapted to the extremities that the harsh climate presents. They cannot deal with the intense arid heat, that is why they hide constantly from it, coming out quickly and briefly to avoid starvation before retreating again. If it were not for the "wet season" these lizards would most likely not even exist in these regions. They cling on living a far less then ideal life (by their required standards) until one season gives them a respite; a chance to breed, eat freely, and survive. They, like all animals, have requirements. Most of the year, their requirements are barely met by their environment. For a brief part of the year, their requirements seem met in full and they thrive. Savannah Monitor husbandry is based on this for the most part.

Edit: Furthermore, it is only their burrows that permit them to cling on during the harsh seasons, an aspect of husbandry that ironically you are seeking to cut-out.

that is their adaption - dormancy, and then glutteny during rainy season, thats what evolutionary adaption is; and there are certain to be physiological changes going on aswell

You might be right, but I would expect to find Sav's in a far wider range than they seem to be found, if they didnt 'like' their wet/dry seasonal changes, I know they are said to be found as far south as the northern congo, and i think it would be interesting to know what the diffrences are between those from Ghana and those from Congo; life-span, size, general health, position in food chain, population density etc would all be a good indicator of how monitors deal with a diffrent enviroment - then again, we might just discover that the Savs from congo have adapted and evolved quite specific ways to deal with life that would leave it to the vultures any where else, and vice-versa

[formica]

Edit: Furthermore, it is only their burrows that permit them to cling on during the harsh seasons, an aspect of husbandry that ironically you are seeking to cut-out.


no definitly not! If I choose to aestivate my monitor, it will be after allot more research, and he will be closely monitored inside his burrow with correct temps and humidity at all times, it'll be the most pleasant version of the dry season that I can provide. if I choose that route; i havent decieded yet, no rush, dry season isnt until end of August. and before that I need to know what the ideal BMI of a sav should be when it reaches that point, before i even consider it - and i also need to have a fully stabilized burrow (albiet an artificial burrow) for him to spend the time in

[varanus_mad]

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

[formica]

not often people mistake me for being stupid.

[franks]

@formica, I have to add, I am so surprised at how pleasantly and respectfully you manage to dissagree with people lol. I think I said this to you before, but again, good for you. Frequenting this forum, I expect a brawl if somebody's post is challenged. It is fun discussing these topics like adults for once.

Hahahaha This is what I was referring to. Veranus_Mad is pretty knowledgeable member here... and that is his contribution to the discussion.

[varanus_mad]

not often people mistake me for being stupid.

who said i was calling you stupid? its a mantra not an insult just sometimes its possible to overthink things.

Simple works.

A ton of dirt a sealed viv and a temp and humidity gradient...

Its simple its effective and it works extremely well.

just remember its better to KISS when it comes to varanids...

[varanus_mad]

Hahahaha This is what I was referring to. Veranus_Mad is pretty knowledgeable member here... and that is his contribution to the discussion.

I could add more...

but it would more or less be repeating what wayne said...

Apart from... limits we have them in captivity the fewer we enforce on them the better...

i see this hide box as a limiting factor allowing the monitor the freedom to make as many choices as possible is one of the best things you can do for it...

Build a hide box in there like the one you described by all means... but dont limit it to just that though give it the full two foot of dirt is it a pain in the arse yes it can be when it comes to eggs or indeed if a burrow collapsed... having said that a burrow collapsed on a 16" argus i didnt realise till about a day later when i hadnt seen her about for a while i dug her up and for my trouble i got hissed at and bitten...

[nepoez]

I am becoming more attached to the idea of a sealed box of some kind, instead of a large soil burrowing area; currently designing my final savs final enclosure, sav's like dead tree stumps to live in when given the oppertunity in the wild, if the conditions are right inside, so the idea to create a hide, inside a sealed box is quite appealing for a few reasons. a reasonable length tunnel connecting the main outdoor space with the hide, so it feels secure, and protectable, by the Sav. lots of substrate and very careful control of humidity and tempretures, plus the ability for me to get inside the burrow without too much disruption to its enviroment, should the need arise, seems to me like a good idea.

My idea so far:

size - not decided, how big do they like it at full size? perhaps I should build in a way to gradually increase its size, if it prefers something snug fitting

So as a start, a large thick black plastic, possibly water tank of size TBC...

on the bottom 6inches of clay aggregate (balls that hold moisture), filled with water approx 0.5-1inch above the balls, and maintained at the same level via either a gravity pump, or manually. this water may also be heated via an aquarium tank heater to provide the required temps and humidty in the burrow, if required. then covered with a metal grill so he cant dig into aggregate and get to the water heater (its glass, def dont want him chomping on that!).

on top of that, foot of soil, with the bottom 0.5-1inch in the water below, to absorb moisture, emulating water table in wild, and bringing warmth from below into the burrow if the heater is needed, and then another 6 inches of sphagnum moss on top of that for even more humidity and for it to nose around in or move about and make the space more comfortable.

Humidity and Temperature sensors inside so things can be adjusted as needed.

The idea behind a prebuilt hide as apposed to the other options (like a huge soil filled burrow) is about access and cleaning, in the wild a monitors burrow will be kept clean by the crustaceans that live alongside it, aswell as the fact that in the wild although Humdity levels are high, air movement is also high, so things dont stagnate in the same way they can in a tank, producing molds and fungi which might not be good.

so I would like to for eg be able to change the moss every once in a while, and make sure theres no nasty molds growing due to the low air movement and high temp/humidity. Also means i dont have to dig it out if I'm concerned about his health for any reason.

So whats peoples thoughts, besides the removing of natural behaviour of burrowing, which has been covered many times before of course! If I choose this route, I will provide oppertunities for digging, for eg and area to dig up the occasional juice fat beetle grub or the odd snake egg nest (fertilized quail eggs not snake eggs)

will this solution present any other issues anyone can forsee? I certainly dont intend on opening his home up more than once every few months to inspect and clean, if that.

Cool idea. But personally I prefer letting nature take its course.

I got a big pile of substrate with superworms and earthworms and isopods and other bacteria in it. My guy takes a crap in the soil(he only poos in the same spot far away from his burrow) everyday. Within a day the crap is eaten by the bugs living there. My tank doesn't smell like poo, just fresh soil. If we're talking ease of maintenance I don't think it gets any easier than this! I put a entire watermelon peal, mango, and other fruites in the soil, and within 1 week, when I tried to dig it up again, it's completely gone. Basically the soil and the organisms in it takes care of everything.

I really love that! I don't understand why not everyone would wanna do this! It's like a self sustaining mini ecosystem.

This summer I plan to experiment with self sustaining water as well. So I plan to make a little lake in the new tank which has soil on the bottom too, with aquatic plants and snails etc... I have to do more research on that, but if the soil works on land I don't see why it can't be done to water as well. If anyone has any tips on that and has been successful with that please do tell.

[varanus_mad]

haha :P yes i think allot - but i would rather spend this time checking all my facts and peoples experiences, and get the build right first time round, rather than have to start again, or modify - The issue of having to dig up the burrow in an 'emergancy' or whatever is a major issue for me, as is the condition of the burrow underground, which the monitor doesnt have control over


PH is something I hadnt considered, a quick check seems to suggest much of Ghanas soil is on the acid side, this would support some of the plants I know that come from the region, will find out more.

Nitrogen content is another interesting point, esp in terms of molds and fungi that might grow in the nest - which again leads onto other organisms in the soil which may stabilise things in the wild, but destabilize in captivity

ive never seen mold in a boscs viv before now generally the captives keep the soil turned over enough that it never has time to grow or develop.

Dirt is fantastic you seem to be pre-occupied with cleanliness to... its really not a massive issue when it comes to varanids spot cleaning i.e. removing large amounts of obvious faeces the large amount of dirt acts as its own waste recycling plant the stuff living in there... Ive never seen or heard of an issue in this recard... biologically active substrates are again a step closer to nature something you are very keen on.

Burrow temps and Humidity seems to have been covered in most threads, ie 90%+ humidity, min of 22C - this part at least, is easy to deal with, with the setup above, aswell as the traditional free-range burrow

I agree on the point of digging providing exercise, I do plan on giving him plenty to do, including digging up 'egg nests' and oversized beetle grub treats in shallower soil areas either way, and enough space to chase insects around at a good speed. - hmm need to find out more about this, coz in all fairness, even an 8x4x4 soil area isnt a huge amount of earth to shift over the life time of a monitor? in the wild, how many burrows do they make, or do they just make one and hope another bigger monitor doesnt steal it? or maybe they make a new one every year, or every few...? or never

On an as needed basis they move if they have to or if conditions around them dictate they must there very dynamic in all of there behaviours.
Natural nesting preferences seem to vary a bit, from reports I've read around the web, they are opportunistic in the wild, taking over burrows of other animals, aswell as dead trees, under rocks near streams/rivers and other places they can attain their required sleeping enviroment, aswell as the burrows they dig for themselves - discovered that savanna monitor meat is a staple part of diet around west africa because they can easily be caught during rainy season

digging them up for tourists pisses me right off - espcially as some of the vids i've seen on youtube are blatantly doing it during dry season, when it needs to conserve energy and moisture, not be waved about in the sun and then have to find a new burrow, no matter how good diggers they are, they are going to loose allot of water and energy digging thru rock hard dry season soil!

Could the lack of tourist/wild images, be down to the fact that tourists dont generally go on holiday in the wet seasons, when the monitors are active? not many scientists are going to want to spend their time in the mosquito infested wet season either, unless sav's are off some particular interest to science, which i dont think they are; shame, esp with the apparent surge in interest by hobbyist keepers, and the amazingly bad care hatchlings seem to get from allot of people!

Most monitors are of pretty piss poor importance to science as whole sad but true you may have noticed by now but those who do study monitors tend to be obsessed by them boardering on fanatism...

Hope this is more helpfull than my previous posts.

[varanus_mad]

that is their adaption - dormancy, and then glutteny during rainy season, thats what evolutionary adaption is; and there are certain to be physiological changes going on aswell

You might be right, but I would expect to find Sav's in a far wider range than they seem to be found, if they didnt 'like' their wet/dry seasonal changes, I know they are said to be found as far south as the northern congo, and i think it would be interesting to know what the diffrences are between those from Ghana and those from Congo; life-span, size, general health, position in food chain, population density etc would all be a good indicator of how monitors deal with a diffrent enviroment - then again, we might just discover that the Savs from congo have adapted and evolved quite specific ways to deal with life that would leave it to the vultures any where else, and vice-versa


If you look at how savs store fat and where without a doubt similar to AFT geckos and leopard geckos big fat store in the tail if you look at obese savs when they go on a diet the last place they lose fat from is the tail.

Behavourial patterns in monitors according to where they live vary a lot in Auss for example you can have tree dwelling kimberly rock monitors quite close to rock dwellers...

[varanus_mad]

Cool idea. But personally I prefer letting nature take its course.

I got a big pile of substrate with superworms and earthworms and isopods and other bacteria in it. My guy takes a crap in the soil(he only poos in the same spot far away from his burrow) everyday. Within a day the crap is eaten by the bugs living there. My tank doesn't smell like poo, just fresh soil. If we're talking ease of maintenance I don't think it gets any easier than this! I put a entire watermelon peal, mango, and other fruites in the soil, and within 1 week, when I tried to dig it up again, it's completely gone. Basically the soil and the organisms in it takes care of everything.

I really love that! I don't understand why not everyone would wanna do this! It's like a self sustaining mini ecosystem.

This summer I plan to experiment with self sustaining water as well. So I plan to make a little lake in the new tank which has soil on the bottom too, with aquatic plants and snails etc... I have to do more research on that, but if the soil works on land I don't see why it can't be done to water as well. If anyone has any tips on that and has been successful with that please do tell.

Yeah get a massive filter on it... bacteria that does the job of breaking down the bad stuff needs a large surface area to work on even then some things still build up to toxic levels water that doesnt move and change.

Plants can help ive got a small natural pond outside in the garden thats around a quarter soil with reeds and grass's growing in it theres also a shed load of plants in there to but i wouldnt want to put fish in there...

[nepoez]

Yeah get a massive filter on it... bacteria that does the job of breaking down the bad stuff needs a large surface area to work on even then some things still build up to toxic levels water that doesnt move and change.

Plants can help ive got a small natural pond outside in the garden thats around a quarter soil with reeds and grass's growing in it theres also a shed load of plants in there to but i wouldnt want to put fish in there...

I guess what you are saying is I won't be able to do what I am doing with soil to water unless I have a filter? If that's true, then I guess I'm better off just changing fresh water each day.. filters are not hassle free and still need maintenance.

[varanus_mad]

I guess what you are saying is I won't be able to do what I am doing with soil to water unless I have a filter? If that's true, then I guess I'm better off just changing fresh water each day.. filters are not hassle free and still need maintenance.


No i can see where your going with but the anaerboic conditions in the soil which take out the bad stuff also produce gas's of there own which can build up in the soil and then release all of a sudden in a sealed environment like a sav viv they would be bad news.

[murrindindi]

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid


Hi, well said, overthinking often leads to problems, in this case I believe it will (for the animal, not the keeper)...

[Pirarucu]

I think that if you are planning to provide a period of inactivity, you will need to do a lot more preparation. For one thing, if you are wanting to simulate the harsh dry season, then I think you most certainly need to provide the tools your monitor will need in order to go through the simulated dry season. Namely, a deep layer of soil throughout the enclosure. If I were planning on creating a dry season, I would want to make it deeper than they usually need, not shallower...
I also see a huge issue that I don't see anyone talking about. Do you know that your monitor is a definite male? If not, it may be a good idea to prepare for the outcome of a female monitor, which will be laying eggs. Regardless of whether or not she is kept with a male, females need deep dirt to lay eggs in, and if they do not approve of what you provide them with then they will hold in the eggs. Therefore, you want to provide a lot of options, the best way is to provide deep dirt throughout the cage.

I think you are trying to take this farther than it needs to or ought to go. You are talking about a period of fasting, why not simply provide deep dirt and a humid environment year round, and cut back on feeding for two or three months each year?

[murrindindi]

Cool idea. But personally I prefer letting nature take its course.

I got a big pile of substrate with superworms and earthworms and isopods and other bacteria in it. My guy takes a crap in the soil(he only poos in the same spot far away from his burrow) everyday. Within a day the crap is eaten by the bugs living there. My tank doesn't smell like poo, just fresh soil. If we're talking ease of maintenance I don't think it gets any easier than this! I put a entire watermelon peal, mango, and other fruites in the soil, and within 1 week, when I tried to dig it up again, it's completely gone. Basically the soil and the organisms in it takes care of everything.

I really love that! I don't understand why not everyone would wanna do this! It's like a self sustaining mini ecosystem.

This summer I plan to experiment with self sustaining water as well. So I plan to make a little lake in the new tank which has soil on the bottom too, with aquatic plants and snails etc... I have to do more research on that, but if the soil works on land I don't see why it can't be done to water as well. If anyone has any tips on that and has been successful with that please do tell.


Hi, I`ve used exterior filters in my monitor`s pools for many years, I think by having soil in the water it will probably clog the filter quite quickly. Much easier to have nothing but water in the pond (heated to the low to mid 80`sF).

[varanus_mad]

Hi, I`ve used exterior filters in my monitor`s pools for many years, I think by having soil in the water it will probably clog the filter quite quickly. Much easier to have nothing but water in the pond (heated to the low to mid 80`sF).

he was on about avoiding the filter alltogether and using soil to generate anearobic conditions to look after the water quality...

[murrindindi]

I think you are trying to take this farther than it needs to or ought to go. You are talking about a period of fasting, why not simply provide deep dirt and a humid environment year round, and cut back on feeding for two or three months each year?


Hi, I would agree, and with the greatest respect to the OP overthinking often leads to problems, in this case it probably will (for the animal, not the keeper).
There IS a "formula" already in place for keeping Varanids healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, unfortunately not too many people know there is one, or if they do, for some reason want to make unnecessary changes (complicate things) because they think they can do it even better, the statistics prove otherwise.

[formica]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Pirarucu, re- Eggs, I did not know that females will lay unfertilized eggs, how deep do they like to burrow to lay? I have seen sexual maturation rates in the wild starting at 11months, is it similar in captivity?

Your suggestion of simply cutting back food is one i've thought about, but doesnt deal with the enviroment change and physiology change, and so doesnt really solve the issue, unless i change the enviromental parameters, in which case the only place where I can be sure the humidity and temp are correct will be inside the box - well lets see what happens! its still a hatchling, just as happy sleeping in moss under a log as in a burrow (which i dug for it lol)

I think I am going to offer both options, as suggested earlier in the thread, a regulated burrow-box and digging area, leave him/her to make the choice.


There are more reasons to this than I can adequately describe without actually having finished the design and got it working - it does sound more complicated, but i think it'll actually save a fair amount of effort - the egg laying factor still tbc

[varanus_mad]

50% snout to vent length of TAL for egg laying as a general guideline...

[franks]

50% snout to vent length of TAL for egg laying as a general guideline...

And... correct me if I am wrong... but I remember reading reports of sexually mature Bosc Monitors at 10"-11".

Please do not take this personally formica, but if you did not know a female would lay unfertilized eggs, you may not be experienced/researched enough to start tinkering with a proven system of husbandry. Perhaps you can keep your monitor for a while, continue researching, and make changes as your experience and knowledge on this species grows? I think it is awesome that you think outside the box, the hobby needs more monitor keepers that do, but I am not sure if you are in a position to do so in the best interest of the animal you are responsible for.

[KORBIN5895]

Ok what I ment by 'not a harsh climate' is that temprate regions, like the UK for eg. also go thru extreme tempreture changes, which causes animals to hibernate or become dormant. in the same way that dry/wet seasons cause similar effects along the equator.

Its not about protecting a monitor from what we percieve to be a harsh climate imo, the enviroment is no more harsh than the one I grew up in, reletivly speaking, its about keeping the monitor healthy and giving it a good quality of life - whether or not the quality of life for a monitor living in a humid lush savanna landscape 365 days a year is better than one which doesnt, is debatable, without hard facts about the changes which occour in their physiology and how important those changes are to its health.

Search thru google on studies relating to IGF-1 hormones in humans, and the way they change our bodies during times of fasting (which in our hunter-gather days would have occoured very frequently) - fraid there are far too many links on the subject for me to filter out the ones to send you, but that is the hormone that is important in relation to DNA repair and fasting (ignore the articals about fad diets, there are some key peer-reviewed scientific articals on the subject)

I personally feel we are "comforting" our pets to death. Most of our reptiles come from environments where there are very distinct differences in the weather and temperature during the different seasons.

A reptiles metabolism is directly affected by temperatures. We all know reptiles conserve energy during the unfavorable seasons. Yet when weather is favorable they're much more active.

I said all of that to say that I feel that keeping a reptile in prime conditions at all times not only increases the growth rate but may also shorten their lives. I honestly have nothing but rationale to back this up though.

[franks]

By shorten their lives, is your suggestion stemming from the constant perfect diet, or temps?

[varanus_mad]

By shorten their lives, is your suggestion stemming from the constant perfect diet, or temps?

Simply put animals with faster metabolic rates die younger... Lizards have a highly variable metabolic rate... kept optimally 24/7 there metabolic rate will consequently be higher... thus they die younger than those who have a loower metabolic rate...

Of course theres no evidence to support this in monitors or other species at this point.

[KORBIN5895]

By shorten their lives, is your suggestion stemming from the constant perfect diet, or temps?

I believe it is both actually. Even in ideal conditions a snake may only find a meal once a month or so. We tend to feed our snakes on a weekly or biweekly schedule regardless of species. Couple that with temps that promote constant metabolic stimulus and I feel we are just shortening their lives.

Most of this is directed at boas as that is my main interest. I have talked to many breeders and there really aren't too many 10+ year old boas. It seems most are dying before the 10 mark. This may be because a lot of breeders are pushing their snakes to reproduce asap. I do also realize that a lot of breeders upgrade so that may skew the numbers.

[KORBIN5895]

Simply put animals with faster metabolic rates die younger... Lizards have a highly variable metabolic rate... kept optimally 24/7 there metabolic rate will consequently be higher... thus they die younger than those who have a loower metabolic rate...

Of course theres no evidence to support this in monitors or other species at this point.

This is exactly what I thought but wasn't 100% sure it applies to snakes nor did I have anything solid to back it up.

[nepoez]

No i can see where your going with but the anaerboic conditions in the soil which take out the bad stuff also produce gas's of there own which can build up in the soil and then release all of a sudden in a sealed environment like a sav viv they would be bad news.

What if I open the cage daily?

[nepoez]

he was on about avoiding the filter alltogether and using soil to generate anearobic conditions to look after the water quality...

oops, my last reply was jumped too fast. What about the soil(not the water's soil but the substrate) will that also generate anearobic conditions causing a problem?

[franks]

I believe it is both actually. Even in ideal conditions a snake may only find a meal once a month or so. We tend to feed our snakes on a weekly or biweekly schedule regardless of species. Couple that with temps that promote constant metabolic stimulus and I feel we are just shortening their lives.

Most of this is directed at boas as that is my main interest. I have talked to many breeders and there really aren't too many 10+ year old boas. It seems most are dying before the 10 mark. This may be because a lot of breeders are pushing their snakes to reproduce asap. I do also realize that a lot of breeders upgrade so that may skew the numbers.


Very interesting. I wish there were studies to show the frequency and type of meals that various snakes and lizards consumed in their natural habitats. I tend to agree with you, and started cutting back the food for my monitor and making him work for it.

[varanus_mad]

And... correct me if I am wrong... but I remember reading reports of sexually mature Bosc Monitors at 10"-11".

Please do not take this personally formica, but if you did not know a female would lay unfertilized eggs, you may not be experienced/researched enough to start tinkering with a proven system of husbandry. Perhaps you can keep your monitor for a while, continue researching, and make changes as your experience and knowledge on this species grows? I think it is awesome that you think outside the box, the hobby needs more monitor keepers that do, but I am not sure if you are in a position to do so in the best interest of the animal you are responsible for.

Yup Thats true i havent seen it in captives yet however while monitors can reproduce at 50% of the TAL i feel its also partially to do with maturity as well...

a wild bosc which is where ive read similar will be much smaller at a much greater age than in a captive varanid.

To the chap asking about anaerobic conditions - i cant imagine it would occur in a viv theres to much activity in there for them to occur. To be honest i couldnt see it working in a water tank either... the monitor would disturb it to much... i reckon...

[varanus_mad]

This is exactly what I thought but wasn't 100% sure it applies to snakes nor did I have anything solid to back it up.


Its purely speculation really its another area that needs work...

[formica]

I personally feel we are "comforting" our pets to death. Most of our reptiles come from environments where there are very distinct differences in the weather and temperature during the different seasons.

A reptiles metabolism is directly affected by temperatures. We all know reptiles conserve energy during the unfavorable seasons. Yet when weather is favorable they're much more active.

I said all of that to say that I feel that keeping a reptile in prime conditions at all times not only increases the growth rate but may also shorten their lives. I honestly have nothing but rationale to back this up though.

I agree completly, based on what I know about evolution and adaption of species to their enviroment, and the known effects that dormancy/hibernation, whatever you want to call it, has on physiology, in humans, fasting as the effect of switching our systems massivly to repair DNA, in normal mode, with lots of food, our DNA doesnt get repaired...possibly why Cancer is one of the biggest killers in humans, because we didnt evolve to eat from supermarkets, we evolved to hunt and gather as the seasons permitted. Most insect colonies that are temperate cannot survive more than 20-25% of their full colony life span without hibernation


Hi, I would agree, and with the greatest respect to the OP overthinking often leads to problems, in this case it probably will (for the animal, not the keeper).
There IS a "formula" already in place for keeping Varanids healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, unfortunately not too many people know there is one, or if they do, for some reason want to make unnecessary changes (complicate things) because they think they can do it even better, the statistics prove otherwise.

I am not convinced that the ''formula'' is correct, there are infact no statistics, the fact that monitors outgrow wild monitors by upto 100-150% in captivity does not mean the forumla is right, or that it is good for them; this is a debatable point and should not be held as fact either way

And yes I do believe I might be able to offer some improvements which allow for Aestitive states by using an essentially man made burrow and very careful climate control - I might be wrong, and I am dealing with only one Savanna monitor, to truely test the theory would require a much larger number to be matched up against control data (ie everyone who follows 'the formula') and wild data (which doesnt seem to exist in very useful amounts)

[murrindindi]

Behavourial patterns in monitors according to where they live vary a lot in Auss for example you can have tree dwelling kimberly rock monitors quite close to rock dwellers...


Hi, where have you seen a population of Kimberley rock monitors "dwelling in trees" (I`m not disagreeing with the fact individuals may well climb trees, that might be fairly common), but you suggest an almost semi or arborial group of animals in some locations?

[formica]

Very interesting. I wish there were studies to show the frequency and type of meals that various snakes and lizards consumed in their natural habitats. I tend to agree with you, and started cutting back the food for my monitor and making him work for it.


perhaps not all the time, rainy season is approx 8 months, give or take a month for populations of insects to breed and die off, 6 months of lots of food doesnt sound like an issue to me.

And regarding their diet not consisting entirly of insects - this may be true, however without insects, there will be no other animals, because they feed the food chain from the bottom up

[murrindindi]

Simply put animals with faster metabolic rates die younger... Lizards have a highly variable metabolic rate... kept optimally 24/7 there metabolic rate will consequently be higher... thus they die younger than those who have a loower metabolic rate...

Of course theres no evidence to support this in monitors or other species at this point.


Hi, "kept optimally 24/7" does not necessarily mean their metabolic rate is constantly at it`s highest, they DO have rest periods when the rate is significantly lower (even if the heat/lights are kept on 24/7), obviously there need to be cooler, darker places to retreat to. Your suggestion insinuates they are at "peak activity" levels 24 hours a day, 365 days a year!?
I`m just questioning answers in order to get a better understanding, no disrespect! :)

[varanus_mad]

Hi, where have you seen a population of Kimberley rock monitors "dwelling in trees" (I`m not disagreeing with the fact individuals may well climb trees, that might be fairly common), but you suggest an almost semi or arborial group of animals in some locations?


now your testing me the kimberly region if i remember rightly one group lived in the rocks and another not in trees per say more like scrubland and the two groups to my knowledge dont exactly interbreed or not regularly at any rate.

[murrindindi]

Very interesting. I wish there were studies to show the frequency and type of meals that various snakes and lizards consumed in their natural habitats. I tend to agree with you, and started cutting back the food for my monitor and making him work for it.


Hi, there are studies of that nature on Varanids.

[varanus_mad]

Hi, "kept optimally 24/7" does not necessarily mean their metabolic rate is constantly at it`s highest, they DO have rest periods when the rate is significantly lower (even if the heat/lights are kept on 24/7), obviously there need to be cooler, darker places to retreat to. Your suggestion insinuates they are at "peak activity" levels 24 hours a day, 365 days a year!?
I`m just questioning answers in order to get a better understanding, no disrespect! :)

I agree what i meant by it was that in a wild setting there will be days where the monitor may not get up to peak activity at all whereas in a captive environment each day allows them to operate at peak capacity far more than a wild setting.

So taken as an average there metabolic rate would be higher than there wild counterparts.

[murrindindi]

now your testing me the kimberly region if i remember rightly one group lived in the rocks and another not in trees per say more like scrubland and the two groups to my knowledge dont exactly interbreed or not regularly at any rate.

I was born in Western Aus, that`s why I`m interested, though I`ve never been to the Kimberleys (note the "E" between the L and Y) :) I haven`t heard about these animals. I know Dr. Graham Thompson (Edith Cowan University) does quite a lot of field work up there, he`s published numerous articles on various species of Varanid, including this species (he`s bred this and several other species, too), I don`t recall him mentioning anything like that (not to suggest there couldn`t be).
Interesting!

[varanus_mad]

I agree completly, based on what I know about evolution and adaption of species to their enviroment, and the known effects that dormancy/hibernation, whatever you want to call it, has on physiology, in humans, fasting as the effect of switching our systems massivly to repair DNA, in normal mode, with lots of food, our DNA doesnt get repaired...possibly why Cancer is one of the biggest killers in humans, because we didnt evolve to eat from supermarkets, we evolved to hunt and gather as the seasons permitted. Most insect colonies that are temperate cannot survive more than 20-25% of their full colony life span without hibernation




I am not convinced that the ''formula'' is correct, there are infact no statistics, the fact that monitors outgrow wild monitors by upto 100-150% in captivity does not mean the forumla is right, or that it is good for them; this is a debatable point and should not be held as fact either way

And yes I do believe I might be able to offer some improvements which allow for Aestitive states by using an essentially man made burrow and very careful climate control - I might be wrong, and I am dealing with only one Savanna monitor, to truely test the theory would require a much larger number to be matched up against control data (ie everyone who follows 'the formula') and wild data (which doesnt seem to exist in very useful amounts)

Dunno really this formula has worked quite well for the last 20 years or so sadly its only now becoming common knowledge... Its taken a while to beat bag the ole keep em like a beardie husbandry...

And throwing new stuff in without enough evidence that its a neccesity seems like a bad way to go to me.


Best of luck with it....

Out of interest how will you stop the burrows from becoming oversaturated if the sav chooses to park his back side right over the water bit?

[varanus_mad]

I was born in Western Aus, that`s why I`m interested, though I`ve never been to the Kimberleys (note the "E" between the L and Y) :) I haven`t heard about these animals. I know Dr. Graham Thompson (Edith Cowan University) does quite a lot of field work up there, he`s published numerous articles on various species of Varanid, including this species (he`s bred this and several other species, too), I don`t recall him mentioning anything like that (not to suggest there couldn`t be).
Interesting!

Its only based on a mates observations who lived over there for a few years.

I have no reason to disbelief it and its not hard to imagine them choosing two separate ecological niches.

[murrindindi]

I agree what i meant by it was that in a wild setting there will be days where the monitor may not get up to peak activity at all whereas in a captive environment each day allows them to operate at peak capacity far more than a wild setting.

So taken as an average there metabolic rate would be higher than there wild counterparts.


It might sound as if I`m "nit picking", I promise I`m not, it`s good to discuss different points of view, that`s how we learn!
I understand what you`re saying, though there are times in captivity that their activity can drop, even though the conditions are much the same.
Maybe you haven`t taken into account the huge reduction in exercise they have in the box of dirt, so in actual fact, at times the wild monitors would be operating at peak levels for much longer.

[murrindindi]

Dunno really this formula has worked quite well for the last 20 years or so sadly its only now becoming common knowledge... Its taken a while to beat bag the ole keep em like a beardie husbandry...

And throwing new stuff in without enough evidence that its a neccesity seems like a bad way to go to me.


Best of luck with it....

Out of interest how will you stop the burrows from becoming oversaturated if the sav chooses to park his back side right over the water bit?


Well, said again, someone with zero experience "experimenting" with an animal`s life is not the way forward in my opinion, the chances of failure are great (the keeper will survive intact, though)....

[varanus_mad]

It might sound as if I`m "nit picking", I promise I`m not, it`s good to discuss different points of view, that`s how we learn!
I understand what you`re saying, though there are times in captivity that their activity can drop, even though the conditions are much the same.
Maybe you haven`t taken into account the huge reduction in exercise they have in the box of dirt, so in actual fact, at times the wild monitors would be operating at peak levels for much longer.

that is a very good point and not something i had considered the box of dirt while allowing optimum conditions does limit them in that regard very rarely do captive monitors bolt or sprint to catch prey either

[varanus_mad]

Well, said again, someone with zero experience "experimenting" with an animal`s life is not the way forward in my opinion, the chances of failure are great (the keeper will survive intact, though)....

i am never very keen in tbis regard some things are flexible and can be played with minimal risk but forcing them to behave a certain way does not work with vafor ranids beardies brumate for example ive never seen a sav volunterily reduce its activity level to a point where ive thought it was a healthy thing to be doing

[formica]

Physiological changea from dormancy dont occour over night, so to speak, cool dormancy at night def iant the same thing

Btw i have no experience with Savs, but 20 years controlling subterran and terran enclosures within very tight margins; im not jumping into this blind despite being a newbie to Savs. I feel the dry season peroid has been overlooked in the current 'formula', and hopefully the fact i am talking to experienced keepers now shows you this is not something i am taking lightly!

[formica]

Well, said again, someone with zero experience "experimenting" with an animal`s life is not the way forward in my opinion, the chances of failure are great (the keeper will survive intact, though)....

I agree in so far as any changes made must be within the enviromental expectations/needs of the animal - can assure you i do not have zero experience at dealing with terran or subterran enclosures, i said previously, and experimentation is infact the only way to keep pushing forward human knowledge and understanding - as long as it is done with a reasonable assessment of the requirements to the animal, I'm not talking about testing cosmetics here!

[BeardedDee]

I was born in Western Aus, that`s why I`m interested, though I`ve never been to the Kimberleys (note the "E" between the L and Y) :) I haven`t heard about these animals. I know Dr. Graham Thompson (Edith Cowan University) does quite a lot of field work up there, he`s published numerous articles on various species of Varanid, including this species (he`s bred this and several other species, too), I don`t recall him mentioning anything like that (not to suggest there couldn`t be).
Interesting!
I'm pretty sure it was FR stated the same thing on Vnet in recent months. He reported separate groups of Kimberleys like varanus_mad described.

[franks]

Physiological changea from dormancy dont occour over night, so to speak, cool dormancy at night def iant the same thing

Btw i have no experience with Savs, but 20 years controlling subterran and terran enclosures within very tight margins; im not jumping into this blind despite being a newbie to Savs. I feel the dry season peroid has been overlooked in the current 'formula', and hopefully the fact i am talking to experienced keepers now shows you this is not something i am taking lightly!

Again, no disrespect intended at all, but you do not have experience with savs... yet. Just the fact that you did not know a female could be egg-bound without sexual activity could have been dangerous. I will reiterate how I really like how you think outside of the box, and wish more monitor keepers would, but I think you should leave the tinkering with "the system" until you get some experience and knowledge under your belt regarding the animal that is in your care. In no way do I mean this to come across as arrogant, I myself have only one and a half years with a monitor and consider myself a novice regarding them. The system in place can be improved, but [B]it does work[B]. The issue regarding the ill-fate of bosc monitors is due to the fact that people do not keep them in this manner. Just yesterday I saw an add on craigslist for a monitor including its enclosure for $200. It was 17" long and in a 20 gallon fish tank.

You should really check out Daniel Bennett's book. If nothing else, it will enlighten you to some facts and research about these animals from the man who discovered them. Most of what you read on the internet is reiteration of his discoveries. Worth the $5 and the read.

Edit: *them- meaning the facts

[mdfmonitor]

Our monitors usually form a collection, which means we usually have a routine, we like to train them to be handable & fit in with our lives in the boxes we give them.

So we may watch them at certain times in the day (unknowingly) & feed them at the same time each sunday etc or because we finish at 3.00 on a sunday, or after we come in off nights etc.

In the wild they build their routine around the resources that are available, they'll know where the best tree is with a humidity of 80% in a hollow & with a temp of 26c inside etc, they know where the best juicy insects might be, it will not be all left to chance most times of the year!!

In return for staying with us we give them a nice big box!! well sometimes :)

One thing that always sticks in my mind that FR said keep it simple & useable.

[infernalis]

One thing that always sticks in my mind that FR said keep it simple & useable.

and I agree with that philosophy.

Provide the basics, deep diggable soil, lots of ample heat (within reason, a 150 degree basking spot is not going to hurt a thing, as long as the cool end can be around 80.)

keep the soil humid and let the animal chose where it wants to be.

[murrindindi]

I'm pretty sure it was FR stated the same thing on Vnet in recent months. He reported separate groups of Kimberleys like varanus_mad described.


Hi, Frank Retes has a great deal of knowledge and experience, when he speaks I listen and usually learn something, but he`s visited my country a handful of times for a few short weeks. To say that during those short periods of time he observed two separate populations of Kimberley rock monitors that didn`t interbreed, one living in the trees the other in the rocks in the same area seems a little far fetched (he didn`t observe them "breeding" with each other in that short of a time surely doesn`t mean much)?
Many species that are described as being "tree dwellers", "ground dwellers" etc, quite often use parts of their environment they are not "supposed" to do, it`s very common.
I`d like to see some film or a published article confirming this, it would be extremely interesting viewing/reading! ;)

[formica]

I dont think that providing an artifical burrow, is any more of an extreme change to their natural enviroment, than providing 365 days a year of rainy season conditions, to be honest!

let me be clear - I am not talking about moving him/her into an alien environment; it will have options, based on everything I know, I will provide the best possible options and it can make its choices, and I can learn in the process.

to be honest, I am also finding it slightly insulting, that people who refuse to entertain the idea that dormancy in this species is important, then suggest that their way, is the only way to do it.

I do very much value all your experiences as monitor keepers with significantly more experience than me on this particular creature; that said, I think i'm being given a little less credit than I deserve, its not like I'm putting him in a cardboard box and feeding him turkeys is it? ;)

Hi, Frank Retes has a great deal of knowledge and experience, when he speaks I listen and usually learn something, but he`s visited my country a handful of times for a few short weeks. To say that during those short periods of time he observed two separate populations of Kimberley rock monitors that didn`t interbreed, one living in the trees the other in the rocks in the same area seems a little far fetched (he didn`t observe them "breeding" with each other in that short of a time surely doesn`t mean much)?
Many species that are described as being "tree dwellers", "ground dwellers" etc, quite often use parts of their environment they are not "supposed" to do, it`s very common.
I`d like to see some film or a published article confirming this, it would be extremely interesting viewing/reading! ;)

only DNA testing would prove conclusivly, as not seeing something happen, doesnt mean it doesnt happen, anything else is speculation tbh

[varanus_mad]

Because we've seen other ways of doing things our way is tried and tested it works I don't get the idea behind trying to rewrite Bosc husbandry.

Dominancy is mentioned in a few pieces of literature however does every Bosc do this do they have to do so? The evidence suggest no they don't have to aestivate.

The humid box idea is limiting its a smaller controlled environment... Vs a whole cage of dirt...

Ill leave it there as to be honest like the uv debate ill stick with what I know works until proven otherwise.

[murrindindi]

to be honest, I am also finding it slightly insulting, that people who refuse to entertain the idea that dormancy in this species is important, then suggest that their way, is the only way to do it.


What exactly do you want credit for, you`ve bought a animal but really have little idea of how to care for it properly? Their health suffers from day one, ALL the necessary conditions should have been in place (tested) before getting the animal, clearly that was not done.
Looking at the current setup, I`m not too impressed in spite of the other members "thumbs up", but feel it may be a complete waste of time and energy to go into any more detail....
I do wish you and the monitor all the best.

[formica]

Show me the evidence that Savs do not need dormancy, and I'll accept it, show me the evidence that a Sav needs to dig a burrow to be healthy, and I'll accept it.

Evidence I have seen so far:

Savs aestivate during dry seasons, every year of their lives, and therefore their physiology has evolved to do that - denying them this part of their life seems odd, to say the least.

Savs do not just make their own burrows, they steal them, they use old burrows from other animals, they use small caves and dead trees, they are found all over the place, not just in their own dug burrows.

Lots of assumptions are being made here about what I am trying to do, despite the fact that I've already said that it will have the option of a hide, or digging, and yet this thread just seems to become filled with more and more arrogance, quite frankly.

As for my 'credit'; I have had many lizards, snakes, amphibians and insect colonies thru my life, all have thrived, because I researched and researched and researched, some of which required FAR more controlled environments than a Savanna lizard needs, even if they needed less space. You ever try controlling the humidity and tempreture inside a leaf cutter ants nest? most people fail within months if not days to keep their queen alive, I kept my colony alive for 5 years before my neighbour let off a bug bomb and wiped out all my colonies of ants, from all over the world, requiring many diffrent types of enviroment, from hot desert ants requiring soaring heat on the surface and cool humid nests below, to jungle poneras, to european and american ants that required hibernating every year for 3-5months at a time, otherwise they fail, to arboreal species which require perfect humidity and tempretures to even build a nest. My reptile list is not as extensive, but i understand enviromental controls, and that is the key. So, yes, I do deserve a bit of credit for having a reasonable understanding of how and why an enviroment needs to be suited to the animal that lives in it, and how to provide that enviroment, across the spectrum of the animal kingdom.

The only diffrence is scale, and if I can find better ways to provide a good enviroment for my Sav then I'm gona damn well do it; and for the last time; HE WILL HAVE PLENTY OF SPACE TO DIG A BURROW should my artificial offering not be to his liking. how many times to I have to write that?


As for your cheap shot about my Hatchling setup, whatever.

[BeardedDee]

Hi, Frank Retes has a great deal of knowledge and experience, when he speaks I listen and usually learn something, but he`s visited my country a handful of times for a few short weeks. To say that during those short periods of time he observed two separate populations of Kimberley rock monitors that didn`t interbreed, one living in the trees the other in the rocks in the same area seems a little far fetched (he didn`t observe them "breeding" with each other in that short of a time surely doesn`t mean much)?
Many species that are described as being "tree dwellers", "ground dwellers" etc, quite often use parts of their environment they are not "supposed" to do, it`s very common.
I`d like to see some film or a published article confirming this, it would be extremely interesting viewing/reading! ;)
Put in that context, I get what your saying. "Kimberley monitors breaking the rules" :shocked:
@ formica - build your hide by all means, as long as it doesn't detract or interfere in the monitors ability to make a "home" within the soil you provide. I don't know if that distinction has been lost here...homes and hides.

[varanus_mad]

Show me the evidence that Savs do not need dormancy, and I'll accept it, show me the evidence that a Sav needs to dig a burrow to be healthy, and I'll accept it.

The 100s of savs i see every year dieing from gout because they havent had the option to burrow... The evidence enough for you?

Show me the evidence they do need to... I know of a few 10yr + savs who have never aestivated and act now like they did in there early years

Evidence I have seen so far:

Savs aestivate during dry seasons, every year of their lives, and therefore their physiology has evolved to do that - denying them this part of their life seems odd, to say the least.

Savs do not just make their own burrows, they steal them, they use old burrows from other animals, they use small caves and dead trees, they are found all over the place, not just in their own dug burrows.

Lots of assumptions are being made here about what I am trying to do, despite the fact that I've already said that it will have the option of a hide, or digging, and yet this thread just seems to become filled with more and more arrogance, quite frankly.

As for my 'credit'; I have had many lizards, snakes, amphibians and insect colonies thru my life, all have thrived, because I researched and researched and researched, some of which required FAR more controlled environments than a Savanna lizard needs, even if they needed less space. You ever try controlling the humidity and tempreture inside a leaf cutter ants nest? most people fail within months if not days to keep their queen alive, I kept my colony alive for 5 years before my neighbour let off a bug bomb and wiped out all my colonies of ants, from all over the world, requiring many diffrent types of enviroment, from hot desert ants requiring soaring heat on the surface and cool humid nests below, to jungle poneras, to european and american ants that required hibernating every year for 3-5months at a time, otherwise they fail, to arboreal species which require perfect humidity and tempretures to even build a nest. My reptile list is not as extensive, but i understand enviromental controls, and that is the key. So, yes, I do deserve a bit of credit for having a reasonable understanding of how and why an enviroment needs to be suited to the animal that lives in it, and how to provide that enviroment, across the spectrum of the animal kingdom.

The only diffrence is scale, and if I can find better ways to provide a good enviroment for my Sav then I'm gona damn well do it; and for the last time; HE WILL HAVE PLENTY OF SPACE TO DIG A BURROW should my artificial offering not be to his liking. how many times to I have to write that?


As for your cheap shot about my Hatchling setup, whatever.

how often do you have to add water to that little viv to keep the humidity stable? If your doing it daily its to often and its not acheiving its goal which is to prevent low-level dehydration in your wee sav.

and be honest its not really got enough dirt in there for it to dig in...

My references to aestivation are from a few older sources i cant find any references to it in the newer stuff?

[formica]

I havent had to add water to the vivarium to increase the humidity at all, I dont expect to for some time, stable at around 75-80%, 70% for a little while after I have to open up and change his water or add food; despite having a 60C+ basking spot, ambient temps around 30-33C, and a tempreture gradient down to 24C :) although I dont have experience keeping Savs, as I have said, i do have experience and understand how to stablise enclosures for all kinds of enviroments

He has plenty of options for humid places to sleep, including a burrow in his soil, the soil has large pieces of drift wood and moss above it to keep it moist underneath, inside his burrow humidity upto 100% inside and a temp of ~22C.

I do understand that this setup is only useful to him as a young hatchling; and I do understand the importance of good enviromental controls for them; which is why i am ''over thinking'' every aspect of his final enclosure before I build it; which infact will start next week, my plan is to have the setup stabilized for 2 months, before transferring him to it...that said, he will be given the option of when he wants to move, via a tube between the enclosures when the time is right


ps. please dont carry on judging me for trying to improve on the current designs for Savs, any choices I make will involved carefull monitoring at all stages; at no point will he be left with a dry tank, no matter what design features I utilize

[varanus_mad]

Ah think weve reached an impass there the thing is i dont think your improving on it anyway ill watch your approach with interest.


ATB Shane.

[formica]

i fully understand everyones concerns for the welfare of my Sav; shame this turned more heated than I had hoped, I still have questions and I'd value your answers :)


Do Sav's seal up their burrows at night after they enter?

Do they have more than one entrance/exit at a time? or just one?

According to a few things I've read, Sav's are more active in the cooler times of day, retreating to their burrows once the mid-day sun kicks in, and remerging later in the day when its cooled a bit; would it perhaps be beneficial to continue to provide lots of lighting some time after the main heating lights have gone off, say for 1-2hrs after the heat lamps and UVA goes off, this may induce some more natural behaviour in them?

My Sav is active hunting all day, then I guess 8-9hrs after the heat has switched on, he goes to his burrow and thats it until the next day; the current heating setup I have is not particuly natural, light should still be fairly bright long after the heat of the sun has died down a few degrees

[varanus_mad]

No sav's dont flavirufus do...

They will have multiple entrances to there burrows think rabbits acces and egress from multiple points...

generally it gets to hot for them to be active midday and usually come out mid-afternoon again,

Again not something thats really needed there bit and bats of equipment about that you can create a full day cycle with inc sunrise sunset middday etc etc...

to be honest its just a faff to my eyes simple lights on lights off there no harm in keeping the lights on a bit longer i.e. having a 10hrs of heat 14hrs of light etc..

[formica]

kool, thanks for the info!

yeah I've seen some sunrise/sunset equipment, massivly over priced for what it is tbh, can probly do it with a set of timers for light/UV/heat

[mdfmonitor]

i fully understand everyones concerns for the welfare of my Sav; shame this turned more heated than I had hoped, I still have questions and I'd value your answers :)


Do Sav's seal up their burrows at night after they enter?

Do they have more than one entrance/exit at a time? or just one?

According to a few things I've read, Sav's are more active in the cooler times of day, retreating to their burrows once the mid-day sun kicks in, and remerging later in the day when its cooled a bit; would it perhaps be beneficial to continue to provide lots of lighting some time after the main heating lights have gone off, say for 1-2hrs after the heat lamps and UVA goes off, this may induce some more natural behaviour in them?

My Sav is active hunting all day, then I guess 8-9hrs after the heat has switched on, he goes to his burrow and thats it until the next day; the current heating setup I have is not particuly natural, light should still be fairly bright long after the heat of the sun has died down a few degrees

Savs & monitors do seal burrows behind them, the argus i have now seals his burrow behind him.

in captivity the ability to dig a long tunnel is a plus!!

in their home turf midday is very hot (as i'm sure you know) so 28/30c is about their hunting time backed up by 125/130f basking surface temp.

1'm using 24 hour basking lamps currently which provide a nice constant even basking temp whenever he wants to use it, but he's well out the way of the light at bedtime.

In your starter cage your sav can soon grow out of it & as it gets bigger it will be hard to meet its requirement in your starter cage!! :)

there's no point anyone having a go at you, because all you'll do is press that off button & we've all lost out then. :)

8 weeks & they explode in size in the right conditions>
the small piece of wood is the measure.

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Snapshot125-05-201321-00.png (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Snapshot125-05-201321-00.png.html)
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00008-07.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00008-07.jpg.html)

[formica]

awsome pic, nice size comparison there - no prob on the size issue for me, I have a 5x2 ready and waiting, and most of the parts for a custom enclosure are ready, except the base because I'm still decieding on the best approach to this artificial hide area alongside the burrow digging area.


So now we have confliciting views on whether Sav's seal their nests haha I would have thought that they did tbh, espcially if the ground above was a little drier than they like - so I was thinking of including 2 cat flap type doors in the artificial bit, to help keep humidity in - could be a deal breaker on wether or not the Sav likes using the artificial area I think;

any more experiences on sealing of burrows at night ppl can share?


ps. mdfmonitor - i dont have an off button dont worry; despite disagreements, i'm not gona switch off listening to people more experienced than me, even if they are rude in their presentation of their disagreement

[infernalis]

any more experiences on sealing of burrows at night ppl can share?

Littlefoot & Cera will, have and do seal off tunnels frequently. In fact they seal them over so well, it's very difficult to tell the opening ever existed at all.

[formica]

Littlefoot & Cera will, have and do seal off tunnels frequently. In fact they seal them over so well, it's very difficult to tell the opening ever existed at all.


I think i read someone else talking about their Sav changing the entrance frequently and sealing them over, moving them about - which i think is what you are refering to?

What i mean is, do they seal themselves in at night, when they goto sleep - i think kinda hard to know without actually poking around inside the burrow at night; they may do it just at the entrance of their sleeping chamber deep inside, if they do it - ok something to look into, gona need an endoscopic camera for that! i think this is quite an important question for design of any artificial sleeping hide

[infernalis]

correct, I have no way of knowing exactly what is going on down there, at the moment.

[franks]

My monitor seals the exit entrance to his burrow pretty often. He ill also seal up any burrow he is not currently using. When there is leaf litter available, he will often use that.

[formica]

thanks for keeping up with my questions guys, much appriciated! trying to build up a picture of their burrowing needs and behaviours, difficult I know to really answer my questions with certainty

correct, I have no way of knowing exactly what is going on down there, at the moment.

cool, ever noticed any patterns, perhaps when adding water to the soil or something, which triggers changes to his burrow position or frequency of changing entrances?

My monitor seals the exit entrance to his burrow pretty often. He ill also seal up any burrow he is not currently using. When there is leaf litter available, he will often use that.

interesting thanks!

I'm wondering by 'burrows', does this mean multiple seperate burrows, or multiple tunnels leading to the same sleeping area - obviously difficult to tell just from looking from above and sticking ur head down obv isnt a good idea either haha

damn i wana get a little robot cam and go investigate some burrows in Ghana

[infernalis]

Probably no help, BUT,,,,,, I know for a fact that the tunnels in MY cage interconnect underground.

I can watch one of the lizards enter on the south end, and surface on the north end a minute or two later.

I also read (I believe it was David K. who posted it) that it's common for monitors to make "emergency" exits, tunnels that stop just shy of the surface so that if a predator enters the chamber from the main entrance, the lizard can have a "panic door" to get out in a hurry.

This seems to line up with the formation of a burrow, then immediately sealing the "front door" and polishing the dirt over to hide the construction.

I would be willing to wager an educated guess, that this is exactly what they are doing.... ????

[franks]

thanks for keeping up with my questions guys, much appriciated! trying to build up a picture of their burrowing needs and behaviours, difficult I know to really answer my questions with certainty



cool, ever noticed any patterns, perhaps when adding water to the soil or something, which triggers changes to his burrow position or frequency of changing entrances?



interesting thanks!

I'm wondering by 'burrows', does this mean multiple seperate burrows, or multiple tunnels leading to the same sleeping area - obviously difficult to tell just from looking from above and sticking ur head down obv isnt a good idea either haha

damn i wana get a little robot cam and go investigate some burrows in Ghana

Keep in mind that these are the most intelligent reptiles that we are aware of. Much of their intelligence has been passed down instinctively to them. For instance, my monitor learned that the water was changed everyday, so that is where he poops. Monitors have learned and adapted behaviors from life out in Africa, that we see in captivity but do not always understand the source. Specifically in pertaining to burrows, it is my belief (unfounded) that they cover their burrows, because of the natural predators that they are accustomed to. Daniel Bennett observed that a small monitor never would claim a "bigger" burrow. They will expand a burrow, but never inhabit an existing one that was much larger. Obviously, a larger burrow could be unsafe. In the same vain of thought, an area of Savannah with numerous burrow holes would be sure to attract cobras, and larger monitors, both of which spend their life wandering around looking for burrows to plunder. Whenever I clean or overhaul the enclosure, I start numerous burrows by rocks, branches, tree trunks etc. My monitor has these all covered up within 12 hours ever single time. Just an interesting observation and my unfounded opinion.

[infernalis]

Just an interesting observation and my unfounded opinion.

1. I have observed similar with my lizards, any "new" burrows get covered over quickly, and any burrows that they lose interest in get buried quick too.

2. your opinion is not "unfounded", you formed a hypothesis based on current data. The hypothesis is sound, and therefore not without merit.

(Hope that makes sense.)

[mdfmonitor]

here's a hole for you, the soil around the entrance looks fresh, so i'm thinking she'd back filled the hole & dug herself back out! :)

fresh soil towards back middle of pick>

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00007-05.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00007-05.jpg.html)

[formica]

thanks for the pic!


found this old journal if anyones interested: http://www.varanidae.org/Varanews/VN4-2_3.pdf


Lots of interesting bits of info on nesting sites, humidity and tempreture levels and estiviation (day/night changes indicating lots of ground water and low temp soils during dry seasons) - also hints at investigation into physiological changes during etstivation, but no data, shame; going to see if I can find it and add it to my other thread

[Pirarucu]

I also read (I believe it was David K. who posted it) that it's common for monitors to make "emergency" exits, tunnels that stop just shy of the surface so that if a predator enters the chamber from the main entrance, the lizard can have a "panic door" to get out in a hurry.

This seems to line up with the formation of a burrow, then immediately sealing the "front door" and polishing the dirt over to hide the construction.

I would be willing to wager an educated guess, that this is exactly what they are doing.... ????I know that other monitors do the exact same thing, but it is very interesting that yours are doing it. I know DB stated in his book that he did not observe Savs doing this. Perhaps it is a regional thing, or for some other reason they do not all do it?

[formica]

I know that other monitors do the exact same thing, but it is very interesting that yours are doing it. I know DB stated in his book that he did not observe Savs doing this. Perhaps it is a regional thing, or for some other reason they do not all do it?

some dont even bother to make burrows at all; according to his book - which matches up to the info I had which lead me to making this thread

[mdfmonitor]

monitor sealed in hole>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00007-05-1.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00007-05-1.jpg.html)
monitors removed plug & is out & about>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00015-26.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00015-26.jpg.html)
next day sealed back in hole, at that level it's around 86f & 80% humidity>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00000-06.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00000-06.jpg.html)