My new hatchling Bosc

[formica]

"Please Note, many of the areas discussed in this thread are outside of currently accepted best practice husbandry of Savannah Monitors, and are not recommended or endorsed as a correct way to care for your Savannah Monitor - Miszt"

Havent got a name yet, pics where requested and finally got some sorted :yes:

Knows when its feeding time already :bouncy:

http://i42.tinypic.com/i56rz9.jpg

Just woke up...

http://i40.tinypic.com/dnmzgy.jpg

Hatchling enclosure, after lots of faffing and discussions on here, and more faffing, i've finally put together an enclosure that gives a nice enviroment, i hope.

lots of drift wood, with 3inches of soil/sand mix on one side, more driftwood on top covered with 3inches of sphagnum moss, which provides lots of sleeping places, he has a burrow in the soil aswell, doesnt use it much tbh, the soil is supported by a conviently shaped piece of drift wood.

You can make out his to sleeping area entrances on the left.

Another bit of drift wood for his basking area, atm its so small he only needs a single 40W halogen, fitted a UVA led bulb into the second slot which covers the main basking spot - although I may move it, coz he hasnt once sat directly under the light, and a daylight led cluster bulb in the other which illuminates the right side of the cage without adding any more heat.

Under the light it can reach 70C, tapering off to around 50C, he sits in between usually, or further away. Cool end is 25-26C, middle 30-33C, hot end a stead 30-70 as you get closer to the lamp. He seems to love hot and dry, spends most of his time either on or under his basking wood waiting for crickets to come by or just dozing

Can see the digi hydrometer reading 75, its generally above 80% unless i take the glass off to faff inside

Got a black tray for a bathing area aka toilet - he has pooped a few times in empty gu containers instead of the water - i might trying something bigger so he can soak, i think he wants running water, and when his poop doesnt disappear, he doesnt go back to the water at all

He's eating as expected, like a full sized alligator! This is its home for the next 3 months, mainly for close monitoring to make sure he is healthy/eating well and adapts to me being around, enclosure will be built over next few weeks to 6x4x4, with a seperate, humidity and tempreture controlled ready made sleeping area, and then environmentally stabilized during that time :) If he grows more than 6inches in 3 months, then he'll go into an available 5x2x2 until its finished - will post up pics of the final enclosure build as it comes along if anyones interested :)

http://i39.tinypic.com/6jj6mo.jpg

[formica]

3 sleeping areas, one soil/sand burrow, one logpile covered with sphag, and one just under his basking chunk of drift wood which you can see illuminated

[Kimmie]

very nice ^^

[infernalis]

Far better than what most people provide.

[sweatshirt]

Wow, beautiful xD

[mdfmonitor]

good humidity (80%) requires good back ground temps ( i always use 80f when they are young) & good basking spot (125f/130), the 3 keep each other in check.

good humidity like that & your sav won't soak much, even when in shed, they'll mess on the soil when young & may bury it even!

enjoy & have fun:)

[formica]

nice one thanks guys, glad its doing the job! :D

its a great back drop to my office, working from home has its benefits :D think i've come up with some novel ideas for the final enclosure, to make it more interesting for it when its grown up (damn wana know if its a boy or girl lol). awsome to see them hunting insects, likes digging up mealworms, but doesnt seem to eat them, hunting down crickets for hours, i'm giving him brown crickets, coz they like to bask, and are very fast after a few seconds under the halogen, big silent crickets too, and locusts, which are far too slow, not tried any since the new setup with hotter basking spot, might be harder to catch now!

[nepoez]

Congrats man! I got my hatchling 2.5 months ago and it was 4-5 inches.. I think it grows everyday. All of a sudden it's 1.5 foot long today lol.

[Pirarucu]

Looking good. Already got some dirt on him I see!

[formica]

1.5ft after <3months is impressive growth, hows its speed now? can it still out run a brown cricket thats been basking? (relative to its size), was it privately bred or eggs from the wild? i suspect mine is wild, cant get any info out of the shop, which is info i'd expect to be told if it was local breeding, might be a later batch, which apparently have their growth spurt extended a bit (sure i read that sumwhere on here)....we'll see!

got a 5x2x2 ready off not

or might rent a garage and turn it into a little savanna

[nepoez]

1.5ft after <3monthsiispeeee growth, hows its speed now? can it still out run a brown cricket thats been basking? (relative to its size), was it privately bred or eggs from the wild? i suspect mine is wild, cant get any info out of the shopger haha, which is info i'd expect to be told if it was local breeding, might be a later batch, which apparently have their growth spurt extended a bit (sure i read that sumwhere on here)....we'll see!

got a 5x2x2 ready off not

or might rent a garage and turn it into a little savanna

He can still run really fast. I just posted a video of him chasing my fishing rod in the vid he is already kinda full and lost interest i do that each day to make him run around. When he is just starting the excersise and fully charged he is much faster and eager haha

[formica]

He can still run really fast. I just posted a video of him chasing my fishing rod in the vid he is already kinda full and lost interest i do that each day to make him run around. When he is just starting the excersise and fully charged he is much faster and eager haha

awsome, the vids great, its great to have such an active reptile with an inquisitive nature. what diet you been feeding him on? atm mines getting as much as it can eat, long as its active, all insects, he might get lucky with a fertile quail egg or two when he's a bit bigger - yearly treat only i think

[formica]

Picked up a bargin 4x2x2 enclosure today, so my new Sav will have a more reasonable roaming space until I move and sort it out a whole room to live in lol finally decieded on a design for the inside to; something a bit diffrent, and hopefully interesting (and healthy) for it to live in

Any recommendations for sealant paints to go on OSB? Was going to get a 2.5lt tub of pond sealant paint to seal the inside of the enclosure; a few options, but none really designed for OSB wood? might need 5lt coz its so porus, not sure...

[infernalis]

Expensive, but will last for life.

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/husbandry/resin.jpg

[formica]

will look into that one! more inclined to go with an aquatic-life safe product tbh; found a UK company here making a paint on expoy resign which is aquatic safe - but again very expensive, £100 per 5lt LOL someones making a killing off that

[formica]

managed to get hold of 5L of epoxy pond paint for half price, just £50! :D but, as usual, england being england, its raining and looks like it will all weekend so I cant get on with the build till it stops. pfft need a garage!

[nepoez]

managed to get hold of 5L of epoxy pond paint for half price, just £50! :D but, as usual, england being england, its raining and looks like it will all weekend so I cant get on with the build till it stops. pfft need a garage!

When you are done couple you please share how long it took to dry?

thx!

[formica]

When you are done couple you please share how long it took to dry?

thx!

will do! says 7 days till fish safe (in sunshine), after 3 coats 24hrs hours apart - I'm going to do as many coats as I can, 5 in total i think, so minimum 2 weeks, plus 2 weeks with heaters running full inside the enclosure - and then I will consider adding substrate, depending on how well I feel the cure has gone - will keep you posted!

[formica]

was about to start painting and I discovered a ''not for use on hot water systems'' warning label....eek, if its no good on hot water systems, I dont think it can be much use in a vivarium thats going to have a basking area at 65C hmm

[formica]

was about to start painting and I discovered a ''not for use on hot water systems'' warning label....eek, if its no good on hot water systems, I dont think it can be much use in a vivarium thats going to have a basking area at 65C hmm

turns out its fine, just not for use inside water heaters with boiling water. win!

[formica]

My Sav has doubled in size since I got it, I think this may suggest male genes, from what I have read - but I'm not banking on it until i know either way...building grow on enclosure atm...

http://i41.tinypic.com/v8ohp2.jpg

almost done building grow-on enclosure, just needs bolting together, some more wall and floor struts, insulation foam and floor laying, then 10days of waterproofing and its ready to go!

There are 2 parts to this, I've built it so that the inner enclosure can be removed separately from the outside; just incase the chipboard doesnt hold out despite the waterproofing

You will also notice ventilation, which is not recommended for Savanna monitor enclosures - this will be sealed for 'wet season', and carefully controlled at other times

Because I intend to simulate cold and dry seasons I am expecting a delay of 6-9months growth, potentially 12months - however I've also built an additional section which will allow for 1.8ft of soil should it be needed, the enclosure will safely hold 1ft as you see it in the picture

Allowing the inner section to be removed, also means that I can add another 2ft height at the base, should it be needed, for more soil - I am aware of the limitations of my setup, and have done my best to ensure that changes can be made if they are needed, until i can build a full 8x4+ this is the best i can do for my Sav

Got all my heating sorted, E27 floods X 4 @50W, 1 X UVB 10 E27 and UVA LEDs, aswell as LED GU10 lighting on the cool side, plus 100W cermaic heater on a pulse thermostat for ambient temps (although tbh I dont think it'll switch on ever)

In total 4 basking lamps, 2 above the shelf, 2 above the substrate, with UV above both - all separate from the structure and can move up and down around 10inches

I've also got 3 humidity and tempreture probes, 2 will hang in the air at each end of the enclosure, the other will be in a box at the bottom of the enclosure, this is a strong mesh box and will give me some idea of the humidity within burrows.


any suggestions and comments welcome :)

[jarich]

You're going to want to seal the top part as well. Obviously not as hardcore as you've done the base, but without some seal against the ambient humidity, it will mold and warp.

[franks]

Looks like fun so far formica! My suggestion would be, since you are electing to go with a shallower soil, maybe make a mulch/saphgum moss blend that you can stuff in a half-log or a hide so your monitor can constantly have a choice of a humidity increase should he desire it.

[formica]

Jarich - yep for sure! everything will be sealed top to bottom with pond paint and silicon on the joints/bolts etc, the base will essentially be double sealed with the removable inner section

Looks like fun so far formica! My suggestion would be, since you are electing to go with a shallower soil, maybe make a mulch/saphgum moss blend that you can stuff in a half-log or a hide so your monitor can constantly have a choice of a humidity increase should he desire it.

thats pretty much the plan :) got 3 cork tubes from 30cm to 15cm diameters which will be stuffed, and also some big pieces of drift wood which will be covered in spag to form a 4th nesting area - if I find after a few months that its just using the soil to nest, or just using particular nesting areas above ground, I'll adjust the enclosure to try and improve it; which also includes the option of the 1.8ft of soil, or potentially a new base with 2ft, which will pretty much give it 3ft of soil - mainly my concerns at the moment are humidity options, and the potential need for a nesting site at maturity - will be paying close attention

[formica]

http://i41.tinypic.com/se62k0.jpg

Finished waterproofing the outter enclosure, finally! took 3 coats over 72 hours, and was touch dry 24hours after that, the humidity here in the UK is pretty high (rarley goes below 60%, and at the moment its topping 80%, so i'm not expecting it to cure in the 7 days it says on the pot...but we'll see!

Today i'm building the inner enclosure, then in a few days the outer enclosure will be sealed with silicon and the inner enclosure bolted in, ready to have a final 3 layers of water proofing sealant applied, and then the heating fixutres added so I can finish the cure with everything on full blast - so I should be able to start stablising the enclosure within the next 2 weeks :)

[formica]

turns out silicone sealant doesnt work on this paint....Dooooh! change of plan needed..

So now I'm using 4mm Polycarb Twinwall to line the walls, base and cieling, which I can then seal up with silicon, this should make the enclosure more secure and waterproofed, and better insulated, so its worked out as a positive change, and also means I dont have to do another coat of the paint with a 10day paint and cure time, so I should have the enclosure into the stabilization phase within the next 4-5 days - getting excited :D

[infernalis]

Thanks for the updates... enjoying the progress.

[mdfmonitor]

can't see properly but if there vents your don't need them! :) :)

[formica]

The vents will be sealed for most of the year, but they will be important to control the tempreture and humidity when i start moving to cold season and dry season; I will of course ensure the humidty remains high within the nest/soil at all times - ventilation will allow me to provide basking tempretures, aswell as cooling during cold season, and it will also allow me to simulate dry season by keeping the air dry above the nest.

I will be very careful to monitor things every day to ensure theirs humidity at the right level in the nest - just installed 2 moisture alarms, and finished laying down the tempreture and thermostat cables

I thought I was finished sealing everything, but discovered that only one side of my polycarbonate twinwall is sealable with silicone! so all the walls are nicely stuck together, but the base piece hasnt stuck at all - very annoying, I need to pull it all out and flip the base over then re-seal it all, argh! must be some kind of coating on the polycarbonate thats stopping the silicone from adhering :(

[mdfmonitor]

The vents will be sealed for most of the year, but they will be important to control the tempreture and humidity when i start moving to cold season and dry season; I will of course ensure the humidty remains high within the nest/soil at all times - ventilation will allow me to provide basking tempretures, aswell as cooling during cold season, and it will also allow me to simulate dry season by keeping the air dry above the nest.

I will be very careful to monitor things every day to ensure theirs humidity at the right level in the nest - just installed 2 moisture alarms, and finished laying down the tempreture and thermostat cables

I thought I was finished sealing everything, but discovered that only one side of my polycarbonate twinwall is sealable with silicone! so all the walls are nicely stuck together, but the bass piece hasnt stuck at all - very annoying, I need to pull it all out and flip the base over then re-seal it all, argh! must be some kind of coating on the polycarbonate thats stopping the silicone from adhering :(

were from the same island!! lol

you don't need the vents they'll just lose you your humidity!!

your humidity is controlled by your basking lamps,take them out you'd have very high humidity (no vent at all based on) poss 100%, put a 40w in & it go down a bit more, put a 60w in & the humidity would drop again & so on.

the top basking shelf in mine runs at about 60% because its got 2x100w bulbs about 24" above the basking ply, this burns up more air & reduces the humidity, switch one off & the humidity goes up by about 5% plus, same if you drop the wattage.

it's about getting a balance with-in the cage, without external influence, look out for my cabbage pics!! :)

[formica]

i know, thats the plan, to alter the humidity and tempretures and cycle thru the year

for 4 months of the year, i want the air humidity to drop, as part of a dry season cycle - also ventilation will help to cool the enclosure during cold season cycle, without having to sacrifice tempretures @ the basking spot, water evaporation is an excellent coolant. It will mean more careful monitoring to ensure a humid nest, but thats not a problem, I want to cycle the seasons for my Sav, i believe its important. Vet will be doing check ups before/during and after each season to ensure no harm is coming to him; and the nest will be humid at all times regardless of the temp/humidity above

Its not as simple as changing the heat lamps, although they will need to be tweeked aswell. The vents are fully sealable, if this doesnt work, then I will switch to the standard 365 days a year rainy season, if i cant stablize things safley


btw relative humidity in the UK rarley goes below 70% :) (outdoors - i've been measuring in my room and its between 50-60% allot of the time)

[smy_749]

i know, thats the plan, to alter the humidity and tempretures and cycle thru the year

for 4 months of the year, i want the air humidity to drop, as part of a dry season cycle - also ventilation will help to cool the enclosure during cold season cycle, without having to sacrifice tempretures @ the basking spot, water evaporation is an excellent coolant. It will mean more careful monitoring to ensure a humid nest, but thats not a problem, I want to cycle the seasons for my Sav, i believe its important. Vet will be doing check ups before/during and after each season to ensure no harm is coming to him; and the nest will be humid at all times regardless of the temp/humidity above

Its not as simple as changing the heat lamps, although they will need to be tweeked aswell. The vents are fully sealable, if this doesnt work, then I will switch to the standard 365 days a year rainy season, if i cant stablize things safley


btw relative humidity in the UK rarley goes below 70% :) (outdoors - i've been measuring in my room and its between 50-60% allot of the time)

Why are you mimicking a cold season and leaving the 'warm season' basking temps?

[formica]

Why are you mimicking a cold season and leaving the 'warm season' basking temps?

Because of the information relating to required temperatures for Savs to digest food, and even during cold season, temperatures at mid-day can still get high in the wild, the timers will be altered slightly to reflect this over-all tempreture drop

There are 2 things that may happen during the cold peroid, either I wont get it right, and my Savs appitite will remain the same, in which case I'll need to rethink the setup - or, as happens in the wild, my Savs appetite will drop down drastically; in which case I may be able to reduce the basking timer further, but that will depend on how the ambient and nest tempretures and humidity hold up, we'll see what happens!

so by keeping the basking temp stable, if the cold peroid doesnt do what its supposed to, then my Sav will still be able to digest food and avoid potential kidney problems

[Amadeus]

What purpose does it serve to have the season change artificially?

[formica]

What purpose does it serve to have the season change artificially?

2 things, (according to Bennets book) Savs are known to have periods of dormancy/fasting during cold and dry seasons, and that physiological changes occur during this time, I dont yet know what the physiological changes are, they are not published in the book and I cant find them published any where else - but a reduced metabolic rate is to be expected, and also studies have shown that DNA repairs occur most efficiently during periods of fasting in many animals, as long as they are adapted to deal with the fasting peroid - both the reduced metabolic rate and more effecient DNA repair, should, mean better health in the long run, and potentially a longer life span.

This is a bit of an experiment of course; hence careful monitoring by myself and a Vet - I'll be keeping careful records of environmental parameters, the monitors weight, food intake and activity

Bennets book says that Savs do not eat during the cold season even when food and water are abundant, so I will not be holding back on food and forcing my Sav to starve, (s)he'll have the option to eat if he needs to

[murrindindi]

Hi, there is no cold season in Tropical Africa!?
As far as I`m aware Daniel Bennett is not sure exactly how much activity takes place during the dry season when temps are actually somewhat higher.
There is evidence of movement at their burrow entrances but he isn`t sure what activity is taking place, perhaps just coming out to bask, or perhaps they might also take some food (the latter is possible, if not likely)? More research is needed before we can say for sure. (Daniel Bennett, pers comm.)
I hope your vet has considerable experience with Varanids in the wild and V. exanthematicus in particular, your little "experiment" may well go tragically wrong (for the monitor, obviously you`ll survive)....

[formica]

cold season refers to ambient temps around 22C (lower below ground), for around 2 months prior to dry season, he was pretty clear about their eating habits in his book, didnt give any indication there was doubt about it, and also said that they had recorded physiological changes in Savs during this time which would be published somewhere else (havnt found that data yet)

no need for the derision - you dont need to have a Phd to carry out valid experiements and collect data, or reduce the risks to an acceptable level.

[murrindindi]

cold season refers to ambient temps around 22C (lower below ground), for around 2 months prior to dry season, he was pretty clear about their eating habits in his book, didnt give any indication there was doubt about it, and also said that they had recorded physiological changes in Savs during this time which would be published somewhere else (havnt found that data yet)

no need for the derision - you dont need to have a Phd to carry out valid experiements and collect data, or reduce the risks to an acceptable level.

You really need to contact Daniel and ask for clarification on whether these animals brumate in the areas he studied them (as you`ve repeatedly claimed), and also about whether they`re active at all during the dry season (even minimal activity), and in what capacity.
I`d like to ask you this question; when do the females deposit their eggs, and what are the temps above and below ground at that time?
It would be nice if you stopped being so defensive, if I criticise something I hope it`s constructively done, and not a personal insult as you seem to take it? Thanks! :)

[smy_749]

You really need to contact Daniel and ask for clarification on whether these animals brumate in the areas he studied them (as you`ve repeatedly claimed), and also about whether they`re active at all during the dry season (even minimal activity), and in what capacity.
I`d like to ask you this question; when do the females deposit their eggs, and what are the temps above and below ground at that time?
It would be nice if you stopped being so defensive, if I criticise something I hope it`s constructively done, and not a personal insult as you seem to take it? Thanks! :)


Just figured I'd add, Daniel is a very nice guy and will probably take the time to talk with you about your setup. I had a project for an EEB class and Daniel helped me alot for it even though it was the first time I've talked to him. Shoot him an email

[formica]

fair enough, just felt a little patronized - just to reassure, again, humidity in the nest will NEVER be allowed to drop, and temps will remain within its natural range in the wild - the Vet is a herp specialist, not a monitor specialist, but I have been inquiring about a specialist, with no luck yet

From what I have read@

mating occurs during wet season, eggs are layed within a month of mateing, and eggs take 5 months to hatch; hatchlings appear from March onwards in the wild - that would put mating and egg laying from September to October/Nov, which tallies with the cool season in the wild (6months from mating to hatching) which can vary by a few weeks depending on the locality

Eggs are layed fairly shallow (approx 1/2 of Nose to Vent length) - depending on the humidity and tempreture of the soil - which can be around 30C - tempretures fall off quickly after that depth, 10C at 1 foot, ~20C +/-2C

murrimundi, I think i remeber seeing that you had read his book? maybe you missed something in the first half, its all there, regarding their appetite during cool and dry seasons - that said, if you have a contact email for him, i would for sure love to pick his brains!!

[murrindindi]

fair enough, just felt a little patronized - just to reassure, again, humidity in the nest will NEVER be allowed to drop, and temps will remain within its natural range in the wild - the Vet is a herp specialist, not a monitor specialist, but I have been inquiring about a specialist, with no luck yet

From what I have read@

mating occurs during wet season, eggs are layed within a month of mateing, and eggs take 5 months to hatch; hatchlings appear from March onwards in the wild - that would put mating and egg laying from September to October/Nov, which tallies with the cool season in the wild (6months from mating to hatching) which can vary by a few weeks depending on the locality

Eggs are layed fairly shallow (approx 1/2 of Nose to Vent length) - depending on the humidity and tempreture of the soil - which can be around 30C - tempretures fall off quickly after that depth, 10C at 1 foot, ~20C +/-2C

murrimundi, I think i remeber seeing that you had read his book? maybe you missed something in the first half, its all there, regarding their appetite during cool and dry seasons - that said, if you have a contact email for him, i would for sure love to pick his brains!!


I think there may be a couple of potential problems with your upcoming "experiment": You say the humidity will not be allowed to drop, if the temps are lower the humidity usually RISES, so that shouldn`t be a problem (great), BUT, if the ambient and substrate temps will be allowed to fall below 22c, what happens if you have a gravid female? I`d also like to ask if you`re sure a male or female could cope with temps that low in captivity without suffering any health issues (especially for several months), if that`s what you intend?
I`m asking because I personally have never heard of anyone trying to "brumate" their Savannah monitors in captivity (not to say there aren't any, maybe you know some)?
Are you sure your figure for the depth the eggs are deposited is correct (you say half the SV length), given that the females can become sexually mature at 27cm (10.5 inches) ToL, in that case it could mean the eggs are deposited around 2.5 inches deep (it may be so, I can`t remember those details)?
If your vet isn`t experienced with Varanids how will he/she know what`s safe for the monitor?

I had a copy of Daniel`s book until fairly recently, I sent it to a friend who`d just got a Savannah monitor.
I`ve contacted Daniel on a number of occasions over the years on a variety of topics (including V. exanthematicus), he`s always been quick to respond and extremely helpful. You can get in touch via his website: mampam.com

[infernalis]

Daniel can be reached right here.

sSNAKESs : View Profile: bodiddleyitis (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/members/bodiddleyitis.html)

[formica]

I think there may be a couple of potential problems with your upcoming "experiment": You say the humidity will not be allowed to drop, if the temps are lower the humidity usually RISES, so that shouldn`t be a problem (great), BUT, if the ambient and substrate temps will be allowed to fall below 22c, what happens if you have a gravid female? I`d also like to ask if you`re sure a male or female could cope with temps that low in captivity without suffering any health issues (especially for several months), if that`s what you intend?
I`m asking because I personally have never heard of anyone trying to "brumate" their Savannah monitors in captivity (not to say there aren't any, maybe you know some)?
Are you sure your figure for the depth the eggs are deposited is correct (you say half the SV length), given that the females can become sexually mature at 27cm (10.5 inches) ToL, in that case it could mean the eggs are deposited around 2.5 inches deep (it may be so, I can`t remember those details)?
If your vet isn`t experienced with Varanids how will he/she know what`s safe for the monitor?

I had a copy of Daniel`s book until fairly recently, I sent it to a friend who`d just got a Savannah monitor.
I`ve contacted Daniel on a number of occasions over the years on a variety of topics (including V. exanthematicus), he`s always been quick to respond and extremely helpful. You can get in touch via his website: mampam.com

ambient tempretures are based on averages in Ghana which I have already researched, ranging from ~22C in cool season (Oct-Nov), 24-26C (April-Sept) in wet season and upto ~34C in dry season (December-March). These are ambient temps only - basking tempretures will be available at 40-50C at all times

the 1/2 length of nose to vent was given to me by someone else on this forum, cant remeber who, it may be earlier in this thread

No i dont know anyone who tries this with captive monitors, i've not found anything about it anywhere - and i have to admit i find this a bit odd - the only refrence I have found to anything like seasonal changes, is dropping ambient temperatures down for 1-2months by 10C to induce breeding - so i dont forsee any major issues around a ~20-22C ambient temp for the 2 month cold season simulation. I am more concerned about the dry season simulation to be honest, that will be harder to stablise

For sure my herp vet may not know enough about Monitors to spot rarer problems - but one of the reasons I joined this forum was to keep in touch with more experienced keepers should I have any concerns

I dont know if I have a male or female yet, but I outlined the various options for dealing with both eventualities when they arise (earlier in the thread), currently there is space for 18inches of soil, if my Sav grows significantly before the end of August, then the enclosure will be place on top of an available 2ft box which can add an extra 2ft of soil (so 3ft+ in total) in case of deep egg laying nesting space requirements



Daniel can be reached right here.

sSNAKESs : View Profile: bodiddleyitis (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/members/bodiddleyitis.html)

awomse thanks!

[murrindindi]

the 1/2 length of nose to vent was given to me by someone else on this forum, cant remeber who, it may be earlier in this thread

No i dont know anyone who tries this with captive monitors, i've not found anything about it anywhere - and i have to admit i find this a bit odd - the only refrence I have found to anything like seasonal changes, is dropping ambient temperatures down for 1-2months by 10C to induce breeding - so i dont forsee any major issues around a ~20-22C ambient temp for the 2 month cold season simulation. I am more concerned about the dry season simulation to be honest, that will be harder to stablise

For sure my herp vet may not know enough about Monitors to spot rarer problems - but one of the reasons I joined this forum was to keep in touch with more experienced keepers should I have any concerns

I dont know if I have a male or female yet, but I outlined the various options for dealing with both eventualities when they arise (earlier in the thread), currently there is space for 18inches of soil, if my Sav grows significantly before the end of August, then the enclosure will be place on top of an available 2ft box which can add an extra 2ft of soil (so 3ft+ in total) in case of deep egg laying nesting space requirements.

There is no need to drop temps to initiate breeding in captive Varanids (proven without a shadow of a doubt over many generations and species).
I`m fairly sure they do not deposit their eggs a mere 2.5 inches below the surface, no matter what anyone may have said earlier in this thread?
How are you planning to heat the substrate to between the mid 70`s to mid 80`s F which you`ll need to do if this is a female (that would need to be in place almost constantly), you cannot get the "proper" nesting conditions in place just when the animal becomes gravid, because you don`t know when that might occur!?
I`m only asking these questions because what you`re planning on doing doesn`t make too much sense to me (but this is your animal and your total resposibilty)! :)

[formica]

the 2.5inch is not applicable, because the information was given based on captive sizes which are significantly larger - i am fairly sure the the depth depends on the conditions in the soil, but what it does tell me, is that a 2ft monitor, isnt going to dig down 500ft to lay eggs.

wether or not the tempreture drop is required, the temperature drop occurs in their natural habitat.

how am I going to heat the substrate? petrol and fire probably! jeez...thats a patronising question ;) pulse dimmer thermostat probe inside the substrate, with a heat panel

wait until my Sav becomes gravid and risk becoming egg-bound? no, re-read what I wrote!

[formica]

I`m only asking these questions because what you`re planning on doing doesn`t make too much sense to me (but this is your animal and your total resposibilty)! :)

ah well, to me it doesnt make sense to offer 365 days a year dry-season temperatures, rainy season levels of food and humidity and no opportunity to naturally cool off in the way they have evolved to :) i've already said the 2 main reasons why i think its important - and I know from experience with other animals that dormancy can be the difference between life and death

[smy_749]

Just remember not everything in the wild is worth mimicking. Not every adaptation and behavior means that you must put it to use, rather it is there as another survival tool in a hardy animals arsenal. Wont get into the savannah deal, but something to keep in mind.

[Sweetloaf]

Sweet looking little guy you got there, Formica. Is that log pile a solid bunch or can he enter it? Would be awesome to see a little sav head poke out of the middle of the logs covered in a bit of that moss.

I'm interested in your hibernation experiment and I'll be following it closely if you plan on going through with it. Best of luck to you and the little guy.

[formica]

http://i40.tinypic.com/j9n8js.jpg

Nearly finished! :D one more coat of varnish to go on the cieling, a few holes for the wires, and then i'll attach the thermostat box to the side, fill it up with subtrate etc and give it some time to stablize before he goes in

the glass at the bottom is a bit pointless with this setup really, inside there are 2 sheets of clear acrylic, so its effectivly double glazing, but all that space will be filled any way - the shiney walls is from polycarbonate twinwall, providing extra insulation and a better seal

Sweet looking little guy you got there, Formica. Is that log pile a solid bunch or can he enter it? Would be awesome to see a little sav head poke out of the middle of the logs covered in a bit of that moss.

I'm interested in your hibernation experiment and I'll be following it closely if you plan on going through with it. Best of luck to you and the little guy.

thanks! its 3 pieces of drift wood, one long piece holds back 6 inches of soil, another long piece on top of that holds up 2 inches of sphag moss, and then theres one smaller piece of drift wood which opens up a small chamber inside the sphag :) he's got a burrow inside the soil, and also a nest inside the sphag

at the very least I'll be offering a 1 or 2 month cool peroid - i still havent stablized the nest box well enough to go for a dry period aswell, thats the biggest risk at the moment, also i still dont know if he's going to want to use the nest box rather than the soil....we'll find out in due course!

He does poke his head out for a few minutes in the morning, but once he's out, he doesnt go back until night time, unless i disturb him and he's not in the mood to be faffed with lol i've tried to get a shot of him coming out of his nest but havent manged yet...fingers crossed i will soon!

[Amadeus]

This is completely unrelated but your toolbag or whatever that is Bosch and you have a Bosc. I couldn't help it.

[formica]

This is completely unrelated but your toolbag or whatever that is Bosch and you have a Bosc. I couldn't help it.

haha i did spot that too, think i'm going to cut the word BOSC out of it and use it sumwhere on the enclosure

[formica]

Are you sure your figure for the depth the eggs are deposited is correct (you say half the SV length)

an interesting doc you may have already seen, nests are approx 20cm deep in the wild:

http://library.mampam.com/bennettbullchicherpsoc.pdf

useful to know!

[Pirarucu]

an interesting doc you may have already seen, nests are approx 20cm deep in the wild:

http://library.mampam.com/bennettbullchicherpsoc.pdf

useful to know!It's also noteworthy that Savannah Monitors are on average much smaller than they are in captivity, and females reach sexual maturity at under a foot long...

[infernalis]

It's also noteworthy that Savannah Monitors are on average much smaller than they are in captivity, and females reach sexual maturity at under a foot long...

My personal opinion on this is that husbandry plays a role in the size of the lizard.

Littlefoot and Cera are notably smaller than Chomper was, and they eat twice as much.

It may be likely that when their internals start to falter that (similar to a thyroid disorder) they start growing out in all directions.???

Face it, those huge waddling things people walk on leashes wouldn't last ten minutes in the wild.

[formica]

My personal opinion on this is that husbandry plays a role in the size of the lizard.

Littlefoot and Cera are notably smaller than Chomper was, and they eat twice as much.

It may be likely that when their internals start to falter that (similar to a thyroid disorder) they start growing out in all directions.???

Face it, those huge waddling things people walk on leashes wouldn't last ten minutes in the wild.

agreed, i dont think its healthy at all, and I wouldnt be suprised if those over sized monitors spend a fair amount of their lives in pain because of it

it may also account for the relatively short lifespan of captive Savs, even after adjusting for dehydration and obesity issues, i think that excessive growth is probably a key factor in early mortality

Temperatures play a key role in appetite and longevity, it seems to me, that keeping an ambient average of 30C+ may not be a good for them, 24-26C is the average during rainy season, 30C+ is dry season, the time when Savs should be underground avoiding the heat, keeping cool and keeping their metabolism low - high metabolism = shorter lifespan

[murrindindi]

My personal opinion on this is that husbandry plays a role in the size of the lizard.

Littlefoot and Cera are notably smaller than Chomper was, and they eat twice as much.

It may be likely that when their internals start to falter that (similar to a thyroid disorder) they start growing out in all directions.???

Face it, those huge waddling things people walk on leashes wouldn't last ten minutes in the wild.


Hi Wayne, husbandry has EVERYTHING to do with their growth in captivity!
I`m not sure how your current two could possibly eat twice as much as Chomper if he was getting 1 (one) pound of inverts daily!?
Their growth reflects the conditions, housing them together has significantly affected the growth of at least one individual, who in the beginning wasn`t getting his share of the food `til you started feeding them separately (at least for a while). The stress caused must also have had a detrimental effect on growth and general health.
But if the larger animal has reached 3 feet in ToL he`s doing o.k., it`s never about having the fastest growth rates anyway, that`s a silly game to play! :)

[murrindindi]

30C+ is dry season, the time when Savs should be underground avoiding the heat, keeping cool and keeping their metabolism low - high metabolism = shorter lifespan


Hi, I`m not sure where your temp figures come from, but my understanding is that daytime temps in the wet season are around the mid 80`sF. Until you actually "know" whether keeping them at "optimum metabolism" 365 days a year leads to a shorter life you really shouldn`t be trying to convince others it does, that causes a huge amount of confusion. Their metabolism need NOT be running at max even if like some keepers the heat/light is on 24 hrs a day, because they almost always have rest periods when their metabolism drops.
Maybe you can contact some of the worlds top keepers and breeders of Varanids to determine longevity in animals offered supportive conditions year round (activity temps, food, etc).
I`ll be more than happy to give details of a few people who`ve done just that for many years and with many species. I`m pretty sure they`d be willing to share their thoughts and experiences with you.
And by the way, I think it`s great that you want to learn, and you should always question the answers! :)

[infernalis]

Hi Wayne, husbandry has EVERYTHING to do with their growth in captivity!
I`m not sure how your current two could possibly eat twice as much as Chomper if he was getting 1 (one) pound of inverts daily!?
Their growth reflects the conditions, housing them together has significantly affected the growth of at least one individual, who in the beginning wasn`t getting his share of the food `til you started feeding them separately (at least for a while). The stress caused must also have had a detrimental effect on growth and general health.
But if the larger animal has reached 3 feet in ToL he`s doing o.k., it`s never about having the fastest growth rates anyway, that`s a silly game to play! :)

Stefan, these guys need 3-4 chickens each to lose interest. Your memory is keen, a lot more keen that my perception of a "pound" back when I was guessing (no scales, however I now know how unrealistic a pound of roaches or crickets would really be, Heck a one pound sack of shrimp is freaking huge)

[formica]

Hi, I`m not sure where your temp figures come from, but my understanding is that daytime temps in the wet season are around the mid 80`sF. Until you actually "know" whether keeping them at "optimum metabolism" 365 days a year leads to a shorter life you really shouldn`t be trying to convince others it does, that causes a huge amount of confusion. Their metabolism need NOT be running at max even if like some keepers the heat/light is on 24 hrs a day, because they almost always have rest periods when their metabolism drops.
Maybe you can contact some of the worlds top keepers and breeders of Varanids to determine longevity in animals offered supportive conditions year round (activity temps, food, etc).
I`ll be more than happy to give details of a few people who`ve done just that for many years and with many species. I`m pretty sure they`d be willing to share their thoughts and experiences with you.
And by the way, I think it`s great that you want to learn, and you should always question the answers! :)


well, what I do know, is that fast metabolism = shorter lifespan, for all animals, you can see it thru the whole animal kingdom, its a pretty well establish part of biological science

reptiles cannot adjust their metabolism physiologically like mammals can, it is directly linked to the temperature of their environment, if its hot, their metabolism is fast, if its cold, it will be slow - I have not come across any information which says that Varanids have any adaption to deal with this and overcome the restrictions that nature has imposed on all other animals, so I just joined the 2 points together

another thing to note regarding tempretures, DB said that Savs where able to maintain a body tempreture of 38C with basking, smaller Savs heated up more, but adults didnt, even when tempretures where significantly higher at basking points, i dont know what this could mean in relation to husbandry/digestion in captivity - its something I'm going to look into more

the temperatures I quoted (26C rainy, 30C+ dry) came from averages of various weather reporting websites, if you have other sources with info on those temps I'd love to see them, I have looked at allot of weather reports tho, I dont think i've missed anything in terms of temperatures

the only temps I'm not 100% on are the underground temperatures, which i'm hoping I will have answers to soon, its a very important parameter in particular for dry season - I am in contact with a few people on the subject, but for sure I'd love to get in touch with more people - that said, I am finding it difficult to get people to engage any discussion outside of the current 'forumla', which is a shame


I agree that this topic is experimental and not recomended practice, i'm not trying to convince people to do any of what I am proposing

Infernalis, maybe you could edit my first post and put this at the top...

[murrindindi]

Stefan, these guys need 3-4 chickens each to lose interest. Your memory is keen, a lot more keen that my perception of a "pound" back when I was guessing (no scales, however I now know how unrealistic a pound of roaches or crickets would really be, Heck a one pound sack of shrimp is freaking huge)

The reason I remember you mentioning how much food Chomper was offered is simply because you wanted others to learn by your mistakes and you gave those details (that isn`t easy to forget)! ;) If he reached 3 feet ToL he grew to around average size in length, despite not having relatively high basking temps, etc.

Another thought; a 1 pound bag of very large shrimps wouldn`t necessarily be all that big as you suggest, particularly if you crushed them up a bit, so in effect Chomper could well have got that much in the way of roaches and/or crickets on a daily basis.


Just kidding..... :D

[varanus_mad]

In your current line of reasoning you seem to forget we don't force monitors to operate at the top end of there capacity we merely off them the choice to do so.

That's we have a temperature gradient ranging from 21 to 32 plus a hotspot

They operate within those extremes and figure out how best to do so.

If they needed to aestivate our conditions would allow them to do so they could simply retreate to there burrows and stay there bearded dragons brumate even without outside stimuli.

Reptiles can adjust there metabolism by using there environments micro-climates kind of black and white the way your suggesti g our husbandry works at the moment.

[formica]

Infernalis, maybe you could edit my first post and put this at the top...

I ment the original post :D


In your current line of reasoning you seem to forget we don't force monitors to operate at the top end of there capacity we merely off them the choice to do so.

That's we have a temperature gradient ranging from 21 to 32 plus a hotspot

They operate within those extremes and figure out how best to do so.

If they needed to aestivate our conditions would allow them to do so they could simply retreate to there burrows and stay there bearded dragons brumate even without outside stimuli.

Reptiles can adjust there metabolism by using there environments micro-climates kind of black and white the way your suggesti g our husbandry works at the moment.

i'm not forgetting at all :) what I am saying is that perhaps that temperature range is not quite wide enough, or variably-restrictive enough:

DB has noted on his website (mampam i think?), that some monitors have been known to spend weeks on end in cool areas of a house, when given the run of the house, not moving, not eating, just chilling, literally, in the cool spot, even when hotter is available, and then after a while going back to the warm area to resume normal life, DB noted that this may well have been an intentional 'brumnation'/'aestivatin' by the monitor :) check his mampam website, I dont have a direct link to the artical sorry, but its there somewhere...i'll try and find the exact link for this evening



edit: found it...

Some monitors continually seek out the coldest parts of a room and lie there immobile for days or weeks. I presume that this is related to the need for an annual period of inactivity.

Mampam Conservation - How much space do they need? (http://www.mampam.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=86&Itemid=104) (last paragraph)

[murrindindi]

DB has noted on his website (mampam i think?), that some monitors have been known to spend weeks on end in cool areas of a house, when given the run of the house, not moving, not eating, just chilling, literally, in the cool spot, even when hotter is available, and then after a while going back to the warm area to resume normal life, DB noted that this may well have been an intentional 'brumnation'/'aestivatin' by the monitor :) check his mampam website, I dont have a direct link to the artical sorry, but its there somewhere...i'll try and find the exact link for this evening



edit: found it...



Mampam Conservation - How much space do they need? (http://www.mampam.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=86&Itemid=104) (last paragraph)


Hi, I doubt very much Daniel`s opinions these days would be the same, that article (the book) was published in 1995, some years before the current husbandry practices were widely accepted to be vastly superior.
Back in those days there was little understanding of the need to provide them with the relatively high basking surface temps we use today, a proper humidity range, whole prey diet, etc. Compared to the huge numbers that were being imported, there were very few successful (and repeated) breeding of any species of Varanid anywhere in the world.
As a beginner your priority should be to use the methods SHOWN TO WORK by much more experienced keepers and breeders so your monitor has the best chance of a long, healthy and (if possible) productive life.
"Experimenting" before you`ve even managed to raise a single Varanid to healthy adulthood is foolhardy to say the least! (Still no offense).. ;)

[formica]

lets move past this area of discussion, we need to agree to disagree on the importance of dormancy for now - i know you have no reason to trust my understanding of the topic, or my experience in keeping animals of many species, or my ability to apply what I have learnt in over 20 years of keeping very demanding species, to Savs - needs a little faith, and knowledge that I am always listening to what people have to say

I think that everyones experience will be invaluable when it comes to making these ideas work or dealing with any issues that might arise, and I hope the differing opinions wont get in the way of people offering up their experience and knowledge

all the concerns raised have been taken into account and have played a major role in the 12month plan I have been drawing up, alongside the planned medical, physical and behavioral records which will be kept as it progresses - all these will be posted up when the time comes, and I would very much value everyones input - hopefully it will ease some of your concerns about how I am approaching this, ie cautiously and carefully :)

and yes, Daniel recommended that I use the currently accepted method of Sav care, but has not yet replied to my thoughts on the topic of dormancy and its importance to Sav health in the long term, hopefully he will soon!

[formica]

Grown On enclosure is all finished :D contains 4 nesting areas, on the far left is a simulated dead tree (which he's currently using, it has 2 entrances, one at the base, and the open top, filled with coco and sphag), theres another cork tube running along the back which is filled, but has a hole in the top he get can into, and also the large piece of cork in the middle, is supported by a piece of Breeze block and the 2nd hide, its filled with soil, and a small burrow has been started in it, there is also 6-14inches of soil on the left half, covered with sphag - the base piece of wood can be unbolted so the whole setup can be placed on top of another 2ft high box, should there be any issues with only 14inches of soil, but he's not bothered digging yet, seems to be happy in the simulated tree stump at the moment, and likes to sit at the top watching for locusts and crickets :)

http://i41.tinypic.com/opmjja.jpg

inspecting his new home :)

http://i41.tinypic.com/10r8qjd.jpg

[smy_749]

How is supposed to burrow in that enclosure? it looks like your using bark as a substrate?

[formica]

How is supposed to burrow in that enclosure? it looks like your using bark as a substrate?

the bark is only on the surface under the heat lamps. It says in the description above that there is soil for burrowing ;)

[smy_749]

the bark is only on the surface under the heat lamps. It says in the description above that there is soil for burrowing ;)

sorry I didn't read it, its hot and my head is spinning :S

[formica]

took 3 months, but my Sav has finally decieded to trust me a bit and eat from tongs :D (s)he's still not entirly happy with the arrangement, but he cant resist fat grubs and mice enough to stick to his principals and carry on being a grumpy little *$#! with me :) going to keep taking it slow for another week or two before i introduce the idea of eating with my arm in the enclosure aswell

[formica]

one week on, and my Sav now happily perches on my arm to grab his dinner :D was a bit nervous and skittish the first few times, but today he let me scratch his head for a minute after wolfing down a mouse - unfortunetly I managed to sneeze, which sent him straight into his nest lol but still, considering the grumpy little *** he's been with me up until now, this is great progress :)